Oh look, more Republican fear mongering. - Page 3

Publius · 10-20-2006, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

And no, it wasn't 8 years. The Cole was bombed, american bases were attacked, american civilians (or places where american civilians were known to be, anyway) were attacked in asia. It was not 8 years.

Then it hasn't been 5 years this time around either. There have been plenty of attacks on Americans (civilian and military) and American allies abroad since 9/11, more than there were in the 90s in fact. Thus by this logic, the Bush administration's terror policy is an abysmal failure, right?

7960 · 10-20-2006, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Publius

Then it hasn't been 5 years this time around either. There have been plenty of attacks on Americans (civilian and military) and American allies abroad since 9/11, more than there were in the 90s in fact. Thus by this logic, the Bush administration's terror policy is an abysmal failure, right?

outside of the iraq/afghanistan war area please show me where americans have been targeted for terrorist attacks

motivez · 10-20-2006, 12:08 PM

The idea that we're "fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them here" is ridiculous. We're spreading the extremist movement and now there are examples of home grown extremists in the UK, Canada, and even here..

And I mean, is it any wonder so many Iraqi's think attacks on Americans are a-okay with that kind of logic?

I'm sure many of them who've had family members shot in the head because they happened to think that different people should succeed the Prophet Muhammed are like, "Wait a minute, that's not very fair. Why are our lives worth so little?"

WickedLou9 · 10-20-2006, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

Iyman Faris
Casey Cutler
William Karr / Tyler Poison Gas plot
Kevin James (plus 3 others)
Toledo Terror plot
Miami Bomb Plot v Sears Tower
Hudson River Bomb plot (arrests in lebanon by FBI)

That's arrests and detentions we know about. But of course you're right, nothing's been happening on the "terror prevention" front.

So how are those the result of the wars in Afghanastan and Iraq?

Scrum · 10-20-2006, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

So how are those the result of the wars in Afghanastan and Iraq?

Not only that, but some of those he listed weren't even real.

The thing in Miami wasn't a terror plot.

Scrum · 10-20-2006, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

I'll tell my cousin he's involved in a token effort, even though he's still in afghanistan and still has the number of men he had before the CIA rearranged their part of the search.

(hint hint: the CIA isn't/wasn't the only one looking for him)

Please do. It's the truth.

7960 · 10-20-2006, 12:19 PM

going backwards:

2000, USS Cole
2000, attempt on USS Sullivan fails because attack boat "sank"
1999, LAX bombing prevented by accident
1999, Jordan bombing plots prevented by Jordanian intelligence
1995, pakistan, american consulate employees murdered
1993, I'll give clinton credit for stopping the NY City bomb plots

New York City landmark bomb plot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Publius · 10-20-2006, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

outside of the iraq/afghanistan war area please show me where americans have been targeted for terrorist attacks

Americans and/or American allies:

2002 Bali bombings: 89 Aussies, 25 Brits, and 7 Americans killed (out of 202 total deaths)... Just prior to those bombs going off, a bomb was detonated outside the U.S. Consulate in Denpasar, injuring one.

2003 Riyadh compound bombings: 26 dead, 9 of them American, and 160 injured.

2004 Madrid Train Bombings: U.S. ally in the Iraq War at the time, 191 killed and over 1700 wounded.

2004 Yanbu attack: 2 Americans, 2 British, 2 Australians, 1 Canadian, and 1 Saudi National Guard member killed by 4 militants.

2004 Al-Khobar massacres: 8 Indians, 3 Filipinos, 2 Sri Lankans, an American, a Swede, an Italian, a Brit, a South African, and an Egyptian killed by Islamic radicals during a hostage situation at The Oasis, a worker's housing compound for two oil company facilities.

2004 Jakarta Embassy Bombing: 11 killed in attack on Australian embassy.

2005 London Bombings: 1st (July 7th) killed 52, 2nd (July 21st) had no actual casualties but disrupted the transit system.

2005 Bali Bombing: 20 killed, including 4 Australians.

There were others that I left off because they could be linked to other ENTIRELY unrelated conflicts (such as the bombings at the hotels in Jordan and the bombing in India that could be related to the Kashmir issue).

7960 · 10-20-2006, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

Please do. It's the truth.

No, no it's not.

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

So how are those the result of the wars in Afghanastan and Iraq?

How do I reply to this? If I say "they're not" then I'm disproving your contention that terrorism is increased by the war in iraq. If I say "that's not the point. I said terrorism was prevented by stepped-up efforts since 9/11" then I'm proving my point... either way it's good for my side.

Oh well, my answer is "They are not the result of the war in iraq/afghanistan, thus proving you're wrong that the war is making us less safe. And that's not the point. I said terrorism was prevented by stepped-up efforts since 9/11."

There...thanks for the help.

hsmith · 10-20-2006, 12:25 PM

You cannot prove that actions in Iraq and Afgan have prevented attacks inside the USA.

Conjecture.

Publius · 10-20-2006, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by hsmith

You cannot prove that actions in Iraq and Afgan have prevented attacks inside the USA.

Conjecture.

Meanwhile, it can be proven that our actions in Iraq and Afghanistan have made it more dangerous for Americans to go abroad due to an increase likelihood of being targetted in foreign nations.

WickedLou9 · 10-20-2006, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

No, no it's not.
How do I reply to this? If I say "they're not" then I'm disproving your contention that terrorism is increased by the war in iraq. If I say "that's not the point. I said terrorism was prevented by stepped-up efforts since 9/11" then I'm proving my point... either way it's good for my side.

Oh well, my answer is "They are not the result of the war in iraq/afghanistan, thus proving you're wrong that the war is making us less safe. And that's not the point. I said terrorism was prevented by stepped-up efforts since 9/11."

There...thanks for the help.

I don't think that we have the information to prove that those could not have been prevented given pre-existing conditions.

7960 · 10-20-2006, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

Not only that, but some of those he listed weren't even real.

The thing in Miami wasn't a terror plot.

trying to contact al queda and planning to bomb the sears tower doesn't make this guy/group terrorists?

CNN.com - Indictment:*Suspects wanted to 'kill all the devils we can' - Jun 23, 2006

Publius · 10-20-2006, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

I don't think that we have the information to prove that those could not have been prevented given pre-existing conditions.

There is no way that 7960 can prove his contention, because many of those plots could potentially have been prevented by our pre-9/11 terrorism policies.

7960 · 10-20-2006, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by hsmith

You cannot prove that actions in Iraq and Afgan have prevented attacks inside the USA.

Conjecture.

I didn't say our actions in iraq/afghanistan have prevented attacks in the US. I said stepped-up efforts to prevent terrorism has prevented attacks in the US.

Originally Posted by Publius

Meanwhile, it can be proven that our actions in Iraq and Afghanistan have made it more dangerous for Americans to go abroad due to an increase likelihood of being targetted in foreign nations.

If correlating "no attacks since 9/11" with "stepped-up efforts to prevent terrorism" then it's also conjecture that "war in iraq creates new terrorist who can actually harm us."

7960 · 10-20-2006, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

I don't think that we have the information to prove that those could not have been prevented given pre-existing conditions.

Ok, you win...it can't be proven..........but if a police chief says he's going to crack down on crime and over the next 5 years there's no crime I'll be sure to come back with "I don't think that we have the information to prove that those could not have been prevented given pre-existing conditions."

WickedLou9 · 10-20-2006, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

I didn't say our actions in iraq/afghanistan have prevented attacks in the US. I said stepped-up efforts to prevent terrorism has prevented attacks in the US.
If correlating "no attacks since 9/11" with "stepped-up efforts to prevent terrorism" then it's also conjecture that "war in iraq creates new terrorist who can actually harm us."

No I'm fairly certain that you can prove #2 there. Terrorist groups declare thier reasons for being terrorists all the time.

WickedLou9 · 10-20-2006, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

Ok, you win...it can't be proven..........but if a police chief says he's going to crack down on crime and over the next 5 years there's no crime I'll be sure to come back with "I don't think that we have the information to prove that those could not have been prevented given pre-existing conditions."

You are not making any sense.

Publius · 10-20-2006, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

If correlating "no attacks since 9/11" with "stepped-up efforts to prevent terrorism" then it's also conjecture that "war in iraq creates new terrorist who can actually harm us."

Except that these organizations admit, themselves, that they have entered into a jihad against us because of our actions in Iraq.

7960 · 10-20-2006, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9