Poll: 54% of Americans think American Dream is Impossible v. what do you think?

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

My post pointed to one specific issue and the power that one issue has to destroy the American dream. If you had your way, there would be no help whatsoever for those folks who's lives have been destroyed by illness and the American dream has been ripped from their grasp due to circumstances beyond their control. If you see someone in a soup line or using food stamps in the line in front of you at the grocery store, or relying on any government assistance, you cant tell me your first thought isnt that they are worthless and are just simply mooching your tax dollars? Do you EVER push aside your disdain long enough to say to yourself, I dont know their story so I should not pass judgement? Your stand has been pretty clear on this issue. There is no safety net for the medical issue and that was specifically what my posts in this thread have been about.

Have you read my posts on this subject? I have always stressed the need for a social safety net. That social safety net kept me and brothers from living on the damned street which almost happened TWICE. My first thought when I see someone on welfare is man that sucks. If I see someone on welfare with four or five kids my first thought is "I wonder if those kids all have hte same daddy". I dont pass judgement on random people, but growing up on the system and see the rampant and PURPOSEFUL abuses of our safety net it really sickens me. It happens a LOT, in fact its ridiculous how often it happens and how people become enslaved to government and lose their sense of self worth and accomplishment and it is not something that we should condone in this country. We need hand ups not hand outs and there's a huge freakin' difference.

[KatKanPlay]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Have you read my posts on this subject? I have always stressed the need for a social safety net. That social safety net kept me and brothers from living on the damned street which almost happened TWICE. My first thought when I see someone on welfare is man that sucks. If I see someone on welfare with four or five kids my first thought is "I wonder if those kids all have hte same daddy". I dont pass judgement on random people, but growing up on the system and see the rampant and PURPOSEFUL abuses of our safety net it really sickens me. It happens a LOT, in fact its ridiculous how often it happens and how people become enslaved to government and lose their sense of self worth and accomplishment and it is not something that we should condone in this country. We need hand ups not hand outs and there's a huge freakin' difference.

My apologies! I may have momentarily confused you with another member that finds opposition in everything I post. I stand corrected.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

My apologies! I may have momentarily confused you with another member that finds opposition in everything I post. I stand corrected.

well keep in mind I do like arguing with you

[KatKanPlay]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

well keep in mind I do like arguing with you

And on that note, Im sure you have said plenty of other things I can argue about.....cya soon somewhere in some thread on my favorite forum.

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

fixed

Good post man, really good post...a friend of mine came over here from India when he was in the 5th grade. They had nothing, I mean NOTHING. His dad now works for the state and I dunno where his mom works but they have a combined income of 300,000/yr. They just built a 490,000 dollar, 4500 sq ft house (thats a big fucking house here in oklahoma). Why? Because they're not complacent, they do what it takes to get their dreams.

We can point to rags to riches stories all day, but that says nothing of how possible these things are for the majority of people.

If you agree with me that the american dream has a necessary element of financial security, then you'll agree you have to buy your way out of potential medical expense disaster and fund your own retirement completely. (This says nothing of good old fashion job security, which doesn't exist anymore, so most people aren't even confident their next paycheck will keep coming.)

In order to do both, you have to be making, minimum, around 80K per household if you have children. That puts you around the top 20% of all earners in America. You've yet to explain how the majority of people can be the top 20%.

Now even that issue aside, your own example belies your point. You're saying the above people earn 300K a year because they're not complacent. Riiiiiiight...so everyone can be in the top .5% of earnerns in America if they just stopped being so lazy, working for the state no less. Your argument reads more like a Robert Kiyosaki motivational book than a realistic assessment of what's possible, and all the exceptional stories in the world won't change that.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

We can point to rags to riches stories all day, but that says nothing of how possible these things are for the majority of people.

If you agree with me that the american dream has a necessary element of financial security, then you'll agree you have to buy your way out of potential medical expense disaster and fund your own retirement completely. (This says nothing of good old fashion job security, which doesn't exist anymore, so most people aren't even confident their next paycheck will keep coming.)

In order to do both, you have to be making, minimum, around 80K per household if you have children. That puts you around the top 20% of all earners in America. You've yet to explain how the majority of people can be the top 20%.

Now even that issue aside, your own example belies your point. You're saying the above people earn 300K a year because they're not complacent. Riiiiiiight...so everyone can be in the top .5% of earnerns in America if they just stopped being so lazy, working for the state no less. Your argument reads more like a Robert Kiyosaki motivational book than a realistic assessment of what's possible, and all the exceptional stories in the world won't change that.

The first step to getting to 80k year is getting a college education. You're much more likely to get there with a bachelors and even more likely with a masters. There is no single answer though because people will always make bad decisions.

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Have you read my posts on this subject? I have always stressed the need for a social safety net. That social safety net kept me and brothers from living on the damned street which almost happened TWICE. My first thought when I see someone on welfare is man that sucks. If I see someone on welfare with four or five kids my first thought is "I wonder if those kids all have hte same daddy". I dont pass judgement on random people, but growing up on the system and see the rampant and PURPOSEFUL abuses of our safety net it really sickens me. It happens a LOT, in fact its ridiculous how often it happens and how people become enslaved to government and lose their sense of self worth and accomplishment and it is not something that we should condone in this country. We need hand ups not hand outs and there's a huge freakin' difference.

Thus far, the only discussion of safety nets in this thread has been confined to medical insurance, or lack thereof, and its disasterous consequences which are completely beyond most people's control. How would people abuse universal health insurance or socialized medicine?

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

Thus far, the only discussion of safety nets in this thread has been confined to medical insurance, or lack thereof, and its disasterous consequences which are completely beyond most people's control. How would people abuse universal health insurance or socialized medicine?

because people go to the doctor for the common cold at that point, afterall its free. Canada and Europe have significant problems with overworked doctors, people not being able to get treatments, having to book 3, 4 or 6 months in advance.

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

The first step to getting to 80k year is getting a college education. You're much more likely to get there with a bachelors and even more likely with a masters. There is no single answer though because people will always make bad decisions.

Wait...this doesn't make sense...we're talking about whether it's possible for most people to do this. You yourself admit that you probably have to go to college to make that money, and even then it's not guaranteed you'll make 80K. You think most people can go to college?

I think it's about 22% of people that presently graduate from college, and we're already experiencing degree inflation. What do you think would happen if 51% of people went to college? Then all of a sudden it wouldn't be so helpful to make 80K if you went to college.

The point is that America, as it is now, is set up such that only the top X% of people can afford the American dream. No matter how you slice it, 51% of people cannot be in the top 20, 10, 5 etc. %.

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

because people go to the doctor for the common cold at that point, afterall its free. Canada and Europe have significant problems with overworked doctors, people not being able to get treatments, having to book 3, 4 or 6 months in advance.

So what? Even in Europe, there still exists private healthcare and private insurance if you can afford it, and so would be the case in America if you could afford it. But for those who can't afford it, who are you to tell them that no health care is better than healthcare with a waiting list?

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

Wait...this doesn't make sense...we're talking about whether it's possible for most people to do this. You yourself admit that you probably have to go to college to make that money, and even then it's not guaranteed you'll make 80K. You think most people can go to college?

I think it's about 22% of people that presently graduate from college, and we're already experiencing degree inflation. What do you think would happen if 51% of people went to college? Then all of a sudden it wouldn't be so helpful to make 80K if you went to college.

The point is that America, as it is now, is set up such that only the top X% of people can afford the American dream. No matter how you slice it, 51% of people cannot be in the top 20, 10, 5 etc. %.

I think most people if not all people can go to college. I never said it would be easy but choosing to go to college, choosing to take less pay while your in school to get that degree are part of the decisions you have to make. You may or may not make it without college. My uncle makes 150k/yr and he has no degree. But it helps. How can you say 51% of americans can't be in the top X%?

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

So what? Even in Europe, there still exists private healthcare and private insurance if you can afford it, and so would be the case in America if you could afford it. But for those who can't afford it, who are you to tell them that no health care is better than healthcare with a waiting list?

Yeah and whatyou have is the top 5% that can afford the private healthcare because private costs skyrocket...why? Because you have taken the private insurance pool from 250 million people to probably 20 million people which pretty much makes it unattainable for many millions of americans. So now isntead of 80% of the population having really good healthcare you have 90% of the population with mediocre or poor healthcare and 5 or 10% that can actually afford to get what they need when they need it.

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

How can you say 51% of americans can't be in the top X%?

Assuming 80K is the income level at which the American dream starts, that's the top 20%. How can 51% of people be in the top 20%? It's impossible.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

Assuming 80K is the income level at which the American dream starts, that's the top 20%. How can 51% of people be in the top 20%? It's impossible.

Assuming that its 80k they can, assuming that its top 20% of course they can't, but that goes back to the point I made earlier and that is the american dream is dynamic, it changes with society and to most it seems "just out of reach". My wife and I are very close to this 80k mark and we feel we are living the american dream for a couple in their mid 20s.

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

Assuming 80K is the income level at which the American dream starts, that's the top 20%. How can 51% of people be in the top 20%? It's impossible.

money isnt limited. If the majority of people made 80k, yes the income spectrum would shift but they would be living better lifes. Just like our lifes are better off then those 50 years ago. Fifty years ago, the average wage was 3k. Today it is 37k.

[DosEquis]

I am pretty sure the said dream is different for everyone. I think the poll is kind of a bad representation because those who feel it impossible probably have the dream of being filthy rich. They feel it is impossible because only 1% of the country is truly rich beyond fiscal worries.

I don't really have a dream of being filthy rich. Fiscally stable with as little drama from my ho'z as possible, and I am a happy guy.

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

money isnt limited. If the majority of people made 80k, yes the income spectrum would shift but they would be living better lifes. Just like our lifes are better off then those 50 years ago. Fifty years ago, the average wage was 3k. Today it is 37k.

But hasn't purchasing power gone down in the last 50 years?

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by DosEquis

I am pretty sure the said dream is different for everyone. I think the poll is kind of a bad representation because those who feel it impossible probably have the dream of being filthy rich. They feel it is impossible because only 1% of the country is truly rich beyond fiscal worries.

I don't really have a dream of being filthy rich. Fiscally stable with as little drama from my ho'z as possible, and I am a happy guy.

Of course we'll never know, but I seriously doubt the average person in America thinks the American dream means living like 50 cent. Most people would be content with a home, medical care, college tuition paid, a little spending money and a sense of financial security.