Poll: 54% of Americans think American Dream is Impossible v. what do you think?

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

No purchasing power has gone up. Primarily because things get cheaper as we progress. This is why our standard of living has gone up even though real wages have been relatively flat since 1973.

I remember this point being a big argument in some other thread and someone posted a chart of purchasing power going down.

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

College shouldn't be free.

Neither should it result in ridiculously large debt.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

No purchasing power has gone up. Primarily because things get cheaper as we progress. This is why our standard of living has gone up even though real wages have been relatively flat since 1973.

That's argueable.
I have seen data that suggests otherwise.
Market Observations

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

Neither should it result in ridiculously large debt.

Then people should work through college. Thats what I did, I had zero debt. My wife chose to work only during the summer and as a result she has a rather large chunk of change she's paying off. Not the college's fault people choose not to work.

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Then people should work through college. Thats what I did, I had zero debt. My wife chose to work only during the summer and as a result she has a rather large chunk of change she's paying off. Not the college's fault people choose not to work.

True, but that puts you at a disadvantage...people who don't have to work through school do better in school because they can concentrate on studying, and they can also take low or no pay internships which can lead to better jobs after. Now I'm sure you'll argue that you still managed to get good grades or something similar, but remember that the people who often struggle most to pay for college are people coming from shitty public schools who will have enough trouble with college apart from struggling to survive at the same time.

This type of inequality for basic things like education is what makes people think the american dream is out of reach. We're told this country is a meritocracy, but it's only a meritocracy when everyone starts at the same place. Imagine how many more people would believe in the American dream if they were confident they could be on the same footing with everyone else when it comes to paying for college...this goes both for students and parents struggling to pay tuition.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

True, but that puts you at a disadvantage...people who don't have to work through school do better in school because they can concentrate on studying, and they can also take low or no pay internships which can lead to better jobs after. Now I'm sure you'll argue that you still managed to get good grades or something similar, but remember that the people who often struggle most to pay for college are people coming from shitty public schools who will have enough trouble with college apart from struggling to survive at the same time.

There is no such things as equality unless you want socialism or communism. You can always make the point that someone is at an advantage and it will almost always be the least wealthy. That's capitalism and not something we should expect our government to fix.

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by JaJae

There is no such things as equality unless you want socialism or communism. You can always make the point that someone is at an advantage and it will almost always be the least wealthy. That's capitalism and not something we should expect our government to fix.

I don't mean literal equality, which, of course, is impossible outside of utopia...but even so, since when is education a force subject to capitalism? We as a country acknowledge that everyone should have equal access to high school education, which is why we've taken it out of the realm of pure capitalism. Why don't we realize the same thing about college education? We have public universities, yet even their costs can be prohibitive. It seems so hypocritical when the first thing uber capitalist types say about poor people is that they should've gone to college, and at the same time they don't want to make college accessable to poor people.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

True, but that puts you at a disadvantage...people who don't have to work through school do better in school because they can concentrate on studying, and they can also take low or no pay internships which can lead to better jobs after. Now I'm sure you'll argue that you still managed to get good grades or something similar, but remember that the people who often struggle most to pay for college are people coming from shitty public schools who will have enough trouble with college apart from struggling to survive at the same time.

This type of inequality for basic things like education is what makes people think the american dream is out of reach. We're told this country is a meritocracy, but it's only a meritocracy when everyone starts at the same place. Imagine how many more people would believe in the American dream if they were confident they could be on the same footing with everyone else when it comes to paying for college...this goes both for students and parents struggling to pay tuition.

So? Work experience + college > no work and a 4.0...I worked through school graduated with a 3.38 and had far more job offers and better job offers than almost everyone I knew with 3.8+ gpa's.

College education shouldn't be free. People should have to put some effort into life if they expect to get good results. Equal opportunity is different than equal outcomes. Everyone (well almost everyone) has a chance to go to college. If they choose not to for WHATEVER reason, cost, time, lack of a job, etc that is THEIR decision.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

It seems so hypocritical when the first thing uber capitalist types say about poor people is that they should've gone to college, and at the same time they don't want to make college accessable to poor people.

I was dirt poor and got into college and had to work for it. Whats the problem with that?

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

So? Work experience + college > no work and a 4.0...I worked through school graduated with a 3.38 and had far more job offers and better job offers than almost everyone I knew with 3.8+ gpa's.

It's not one or the other. You can work summers only, get the experience employers want, and then concentrate on school during the semester. Or even if we are talking about working all the way through school to get experience, people who don't have to work can also take unpaid or low paying internships which poor people can't.

Can Ordinary Students (Like You) Keep an Unpaid Internship?

The trouble with awesome summer internships--assistant editorial assistant at Rolling Stone or Spin, apprentice writer for NPR, savvy tour guide at the Met or the Art Institute of Chicago--is that many of them pay exactly nada. This means that the best internships--and thus, the really cool jobs--end up going to people who can afford to sail through months without an income. This, of course, translates into those students or recent grads who are supported financially by their parents. If you have a healthy trust fund from which to draw, you're good to go for any internship. But the truth is that most people don't have trust funds--and especially if you're a recent graduate, you're on your own.

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

College education shouldn't be free. People should have to put some effort into life if they expect to get good results.

Being a dedicated, full time student isn't "some effort" worthy of being rewarded? I don't see how flipping burgers at the same time as going to school suddenly makes a person worthy of good results, while someone who merely studies is not.

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Equal opportunity is different than equal outcomes.

Yeah, that's true, but I don't see why you're saying it, because it goes against your argument, assuming you're arguing for equal opportunity and not equal outcome. I'm arguing for equal access to college. That's equal opportunity. What people do with that is up to them, which will always be unequal.

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

I was dirt poor and got into college and had to work for it. Whats the problem with that?

That you think your overcoming unequal access somehow negates that access is unequal.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

It's not one or the other. You can work summers only, get the experience employers want, and then concentrate on school during the semester. Or even if we are talking about working all the way through school to get experience, people who don't have to work can also take unpaid or low paying internships which poor people can't.

Can Ordinary Students (Like You) Keep an Unpaid Internship?

Being a dedicated, full time student isn't "some effort" worthy of being rewarded? I don't see how flipping burgers at the same time as going to school suddenly makes a person worthy of good results, while someone who merely studies is not.

Yeah, that's true, but I don't see why you're saying it, because it goes against your argument, assuming you're arguing for equal opportunity and not equal outcome. I'm arguing for equal access to college. That's equal opportunity. What people do with that is up to them, which will always be unequal.

You're right its not one or the other, there's a variety of scenarios that can play out. Simply because my parents weren't loaded doesn't mean I should get a free college education.

Being a dedicated full time student is work but quite honestly its not hard work. If I could work full time as a manager in retail, carry a full load in some cases up to 19 hrs a semester and still get reasonable grades, I dont see what the problem is. If someone wants to ONLY go to college as you suggest that is fine but they're going to pay price for it. Either mommy and daddy will pay for it or they'll have debt to pay off when they graduate. They could also work part time, work in the summers, or work full time as I did. It comes down to personal preference but this notion that poor people somehow dont have access to college is just flat wrong. They have access to it, the question is do they want to sacrifice to get it.

Equal opportunity to go to college doesn't mean the costs and/or trade offs are the same. But I can't think of one person who couldnt get into college if they wanted to. Hell one of my best friends scored a 13 on his ACT, he got into a community college on probation and eventually into a university where he graduated with a 3.0 GPA in accounting and now has a good job.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

That you think your overcoming unequal access somehow negates that access is unequal.

Because its NOT unequal access, thats the point! My parents couldn't pay for it, SO WHAT? I paid for it because I viewed college as necessary, I chose to make the sacrifices because I HAD ACCESS TO COLLEGE!

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Because its NOT unequal access, thats the point! My parents couldn't pay for it, SO WHAT? I paid for it because I viewed college as necessary, I chose to make the sacrifices because I HAD ACCESS TO COLLEGE!

The fact that you had to make greater sacrifices than others to get to the exact same place means that you didn't have equal access. If I have to pay $5 to go somewhere, and you have to pay $20, how is that equal access? It seems you think access is equal if it's possible to get there for everyone, regardless of whether some have to jump over hurdles while others walk in on a red carpet. So I guess per your logic, poll taxes didn't get in the way of equal access to voting because everyone could pay them and if people chose not to, it was their choice.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

The fact that you had to make greater sacrifices than others to get to the exact same place means that you didn't have equal access. If I have to pay $5 to go somewhere, and you have to pay $20, how is that equal access? It seems you think access is equal if it's possible to get there for everyone, regardless of whether some have to jump over hurdles while others walk in on a red carpet. So I guess per your logic, poll taxes didn't get in the way of equal access to voting because everyone could pay them and if people chose not to, it was their choice.

These other folks paid for it too, it was their families that paid for it. So its not like the rich get to go to college for free...

I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this cause we'll just never see eye to eye

[ballz2wallz]

I don't see how anybody could ever say that. I think legal immigrants are the only people left that see what the true American Dream is.