Poll: 54% of Americans think American Dream is Impossible v. what do you think?

SpicyMcVoodoo · 10-20-2006, 05:09 PM

(CNN) -- According to a new CNN poll, 54% of the public believes that it is impossible for most people in the U.S. to achieve the American dream.

Your e-mails: Chasing the American dream - CNN.com

I guess the most obvious issue with this question is what exactly is the American dream? To me, it's to own a home, have children, be able to support them, ideally be able to have one income support the family, send the kids to college, have a sense of security financially before and after retirement, and ideally do better than your parents did.

For me, the reason why I'm discouraged about the American dream is mostly financial. I'm no longer confident that having even an advanced degree is any guarantee of anything. I don't think having a one income family is a possible for the vast majority of people anymore, whereas I get the impression it used to be common. And without socialized medicine or medical insurance, many middle class people are always going to be 1 serious illness away from financial devistation. Now combine that with SS collapsing by the time I retire, and companies not having any pensions or job security, and the future looks pretty uncertain.

What do you guys think? And what impact will this newfound pessimism (or realism) have on politics? I'd say the rhetoric about an ownership society, independence, etc. is going to fall on deaf ears as more people stop chasing the carrot hung in from them because they realize they'll never get it.

6SpeedTA95 · 10-20-2006, 05:24 PM

I think those that say it is impossible need to look at themselves in the mirror and ask themselves if they've made the right decisions, decisions that lead to the american dream.

Some folks have bad luck but I'm living proof that the dream exists and is possible.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 10-20-2006, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

I think those that say it is impossible need to look at themselves in the mirror and ask themselves if they've made the right decisions, decisions that lead to the american dream.

Some folks have bad luck but I'm living proof that the dream exists and is possible.

So in other words, if you haven't achieved the American dream, it's your own fault? Doesn't that assume it's possible for everyone to achieve the American dream? You really think it's possible for everyone to achieve the American dream?

BTW, I mischaracterized the question in my title...the question wasn't whether the American dream is possible, but whether it is possible for most people.

Certainly the American dream is possible for some, but individual examples of success have nothing to do with how possible it is for most people.

6SpeedTA95 · 10-20-2006, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

So in other words, if you haven't achieved the American dream, it's your own fault? Doesn't that assume it's possible for everyone to achieve the American dream? You really think it's possible for everyone to achieve the American dream?

BTW, I mischaracterized the question in my title...the question wasn't whether the American dream is possible, but whether it is possible for most people.

Certainly the American dream is possible for some, but individual examples of success have nothing to do with how possible it is for most people.

Yes its possible for most people.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 10-20-2006, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Yes its possible for most people.

At what income level, per household, do you think it's possible to live the American dream?

Unless you think the American dream starts at less than 50K annual income per household, I don't see how you can say it's possible for most people.

Median incomes by race:

To earn 88K a year, you'd have to be in the top 20% of all earners in America. I'd say, bare minimum, this is where the American dream starts, assuming you have enough security to continue earning it.

How can "most people" be in the top 20%?

IminWonderland · 10-20-2006, 08:04 PM

I think that we need to change our dream. Because the dream isn't affordable anymore.

All the right decisions in the world aren't going to make this dream come true.

I believe the dream was a fallacy to begin with.

This dream is not the key to being happy.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 10-20-2006, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

I think that we need to change our dream. Because the dream isn't affordable anymore.

All the right decisions in the world aren't going to make this dream come true.

I believe the dream was a fallacy to begin with.

This dream is not the key to being happy.

Maybe the total package dream life isn't possible and was a fallacy to begin with, but I see no reason why the wealthiest country in the entire world regularly has middle class people ruined by health care expenses.

MarketWatch: Illness And Injury As Contributors To Bankruptcy -- Himmelstein et al., 10.1377/hlthaff.w5.63 -- Health Affairs

n 2001, 1.458 million American families filed for bankruptcy. To investigate medical contributors to bankruptcy, we surveyed 1,771 personal bankruptcy filers in five federal courts and subsequently completed in-depth interviews with 931 of them. About half cited medical causes, which indicates that 1.9–2.2 million Americans (filers plus dependents) experienced medical bankruptcy. Among those whose illnesses led to bankruptcy, out-of-pocket costs averaged $11,854 since the start of illness; 75.7 percent had insurance at the onset of illness. Medical debtors were 42 percent more likely than other debtors to experience lapses in coverage. Even middle-class insured families often fall prey to financial catastrophe when sick.

And this was before new bankruptcy laws came into effect which made it even harder for people to come out from under this type of oppressive medical debt.

This is something that nations far poorer than ourselves don't have to do deal with and is many times completely beyond a person's control. How can you have the American dream when everything you've worked for can suddenly be destroyed by one illness?

JaJae · 10-20-2006, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

At what income level, per household, do you think it's possible to live the American dream?

Unless you think the American dream starts at less than 50K annual income per household, I don't see how you can say it's possible for most people.

Median incomes by race:

To earn 88K a year, you'd have to be in the top 20% of all earners in America. I'd say, bare minimum, this is where the American dream starts, assuming you have enough security to continue earning it.

How can "most people" be in the top 20%?

Over 50% of minorities in this country own their own home. 70% of Americans own their own homes. I'd say the majority of Americans are living your definition of the American dream. So to say "it's impossible for most Americans" to live the American dream I'd have to disagree with. Just within my limited experience in the work force I can tell who is going to be successful and who isn't. It has very little to do with race or how much money they started out with. It has everything to do with intelligence/common sense and most importantly how much effort they put into their jobs. As long as you're willing to work harder than the majority of other people you'll be fine in this country.

My parents are basically high school dropouts in NJ and they're both doing fine.

IminWonderland · 10-20-2006, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

Over 50% of minorities in this country own their own home. 70% of Americans own their own homes. I'd say the majority of Americans are living your definition of the American dream. So to say "it's impossible for most Americans" to live the American dream I'd have to disagree with. Just within my limited experience in the work force I can tell who is going to be successful and who isn't. It has very little to do with race or how much money they started out with. It has everything to do with intelligence/common sense and most importantly how much effort they put into their jobs. As long as you're willing to work harder than the majority of other people you'll be fine in this country.

My parents are basically high school dropouts in NJ and they're both doing fine.

I think that this arguement will be more apparent in about 20 years.

6SpeedTA95 · 10-20-2006, 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

At what income level, per household, do you think it's possible to live the American dream?

Unless you think the American dream starts at less than 50K annual income per household, I don't see how you can say it's possible for most people.

Median incomes by race:

To earn 88K a year, you'd have to be in the top 20% of all earners in America. I'd say, bare minimum, this is where the American dream starts, assuming you have enough security to continue earning it.

How can "most people" be in the top 20%?

I think everyone's american dream is different and most folks have a false sense of what that dream ever entailed. The standard of living in this country has been on the rise since the turn of the last century. So todays average american is last generations dream.

WickedLou9 · 10-20-2006, 09:51 PM

I Don't really think you can answer that without defining what the American Dream really is. In fact I think that definition has changed over time. I'm not sure why or who changed it.. but it used to be the whole " house in the suburbs, 2 cars, with 2 kids and a dog" kinda thing. Today people think of the American Dream as making it big and being rich and what not. MTV cribs kinda stuff... which is unrealisitic and maybe .5% of the population can ever achieve that sort of wealth.
The old american dream of a house in the burbs I think is well in reach of alot of people.

6SpeedTA95 · 10-20-2006, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

I Don't really think you can answer that without defining what the American Dream really is. In fact I think that definition has changed over time. I'm not sure why or who changed it.. but it used to be the whole " house in the suburbs, 2 cars, with 2 kids and a dog" kinda thing. Today people think of the American Dream as making it big and being rich and what not. MTV cribs kinda stuff... which is unrealisitic and maybe .5% of the population can ever achieve that sort of wealth.
The old american dream of a house in the burbs I think is well in reach of alot of people.

Good post

IminWonderland · 10-20-2006, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

I Don't really think you can answer that without defining what the American Dream really is. In fact I think that definition has changed over time. I'm not sure why or who changed it.. but it used to be the whole " house in the suburbs, 2 cars, with 2 kids and a dog" kinda thing. Today people think of the American Dream as making it big and being rich and what not. MTV cribs kinda stuff... which is unrealisitic and maybe .5% of the population can ever achieve that sort of wealth.
The old american dream of a house in the burbs I think is well in reach of alot of people.

I think that the ability to own a house in the burbs, at least where I live, which was the mecca of what the American Dream standard was in the 50s and 60s, it's not like that anymore. Now, we have starter families, with two incomes that can't buy a home. And if it could happen here, it could happen elsewhere. I hope that our politicians start considering the middle class economy because if they don't, Kansas will even be impossible to buy a home for the middle class. It's in reach now, but alot of people are having to move from their home towns to do it. And the reality is, is that our parents, of course they are doing well, because they got in when you could buy property for 25K.

I don't want the American Dream. I just want what I want.

6SpeedTA95 · 10-20-2006, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

I think that the ability to own a house in the burbs, at least where I live, which was the mecca of what the American Dream standard was in the 50s and 60s, it's not like that anymore. Now, we have starter families, with two incomes that can't buy a home. And if it could happen here, it could happen elsewhere. I hope that our politicians start considering the middle class economy because if they don't, Kansas will even be impossible to buy a home for the middle class. It's in reach now, but alot of people are having to move from their home towns to do it. And the reality is, is that our parents, of course they are doing well, because they got in when you could buy property for 25K.

I don't want the American Dream. I just want what I want.

What do you want them to do to "consider" the middle class economy? You choose to live in the most expensive state in the US. So I fail to see how thats some politicians fault?

You can move, but you make sacrifices as you've said before to live in Cali. I dunno what your income is in Cali but I bet you could live VERY well on your income here. So why not move? Why not sacrifice to get this house that you seem to want? Move away...????

IminWonderland · 10-21-2006, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

What do you want them to do to "consider" the middle class economy? You choose to live in the most expensive state in the US. So I fail to see how thats some politicians fault?

You can move, but you make sacrifices as you've said before to live in Cali. I dunno what your income is in Cali but I bet you could live VERY well on your income here. So why not move? Why not sacrifice to get this house that you seem to want? Move away...????

Well, they need to start considering what this massive immigration has done to the middle class. Because it has greatly affected it here in Cali. I didn't CHOOSE California, I was born and raised here. Did you CHOOSE to be an American? No, you were born here. It's the same principle.

You are right, I make sacrifices to live here for now. But, the fact is, is that there are other places I COULD move that don't offer the cultural, an educational opportunities that I get here. And as far as my income, the problem with moving, is that what we make here, we are unlikely to make somewhere else. And in smaller towns where it is affordable to live, the job market isn't exactly "budding" especially if you are aspiring Professor, or a writer, but I'll have to make those changes to move.

The thing is, is that what Cali is now...your town could look like in 20 years. Then you'll get it when your kids can't buy a home.

6SpeedTA95 · 10-21-2006, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

Well, they need to start considering what this massive immigration has done to the middle class. Because it has greatly affected it here in Cali. I didn't CHOOSE California, I was born and raised here. Did you CHOOSE to be an American? No, you were born here. It's the same principle.

You are right, I make sacrifices to live here for now. But, the fact is, is that there are other places I COULD move that don't offer the cultural, an educational opportunities that I get here. And as far as my income, the problem with moving, is that what we make here, we are unlikely to make somewhere else. And in smaller towns where it is affordable to live, the job market isn't exactly "budding" especially if you are aspiring Professor, or a writer, but I'll have to make those changes to move.

The thing is, is that what Cali is now...your town could look like in 20 years. Then you'll get it when your kids can't buy a home.

You didn't choose to be born in Cali but you choose to continue living there.

The midwest is full of midsize and large cities that provide opportunities. The rockies east to the apalachians for the most part its very VERY affordable to live.

Home prices can't continue to go up anymore than supply/demand dictate that they go up. The government has no business interfering with supply/demand principles in the market.

IminWonderland · 10-21-2006, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

You didn't choose to be born in Cali but you choose to continue living there.

The midwest is full of midsize and large cities that provide opportunities. The rockies east to the apalachians for the most part its very VERY affordable to live.

Home prices can't continue to go up anymore than supply/demand dictate that they go up. The government has no business interfering with supply/demand principles in the market.

I'm not suggesting that the government interfere in home prices. But businesses hiring illegal immigrants in California (which IS the government's business) has grossly affected the economy here, and part of that affect is that they have driven out the middle class from their jobs, and forced them to move.

You know, the thing about moving, is that it's like moving to another country. I am Californian. I have the accent. I have the demeanor, and I have the culture of a Californian. And moving isn't just about buying a house, it's also loosing part of who I am. This shift isn't something that has just evolved, it is that way because of the poor decisions some of our local politicians have made, and because of a lack of consideration by the Federal Government to deal with problems we have had here for 20 years.

But, don't worry, like I said, in 20 years, if they continue to do nothing, or worse, give amnesty to all of these people, your town will look like my town. And your kids will have to move to find housing that's affordable, and that might mean states away from you.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 10-21-2006, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

Over 50% of minorities in this country own their own home. 70% of Americans own their own homes. I'd say the majority of Americans are living your definition of the American dream. So to say "it's impossible for most Americans" to live the American dream I'd have to disagree with. Just within my limited experience in the work force I can tell who is going to be successful and who isn't. It has very little to do with race or how much money they started out with. It has everything to do with intelligence/common sense and most importantly how much effort they put into their jobs. As long as you're willing to work harder than the majority of other people you'll be fine in this country.

My parents are basically high school dropouts in NJ and they're both doing fine.

I bolded the financial security part of my definition of the American dream because I think it's most important. In fact, I'd argue that's more important than owning a home.

We can argue about what exactly the American dream is, but whether you have a modest conception of it or a bling bling conception of it, I think we can all agree the American dream has a strong element of financial security in it.

I don't think anyone considers the American dream one where you're worried about being bankrupted by medical bills, can't afford your meds or don't know how you're going to retire. Those are problems a lot of middle class people are facing and will face in the future, and saying these problems only affect stupid lazy people is just false.

My grandparents are completely uneducated manual workers, and they're doing fine. But that has nothing to do with my situation. They enjoyed lifetime employment with the same company, are drawing on a pension, and receive regular SS checks. These are all things my generation has no chance in hell of having. Something has changed in America, and talking about what people in the previous generation did is becoming less and less relevant.