Question about foreign policy

Dispatcher · 10-17-2009, 01:53 AM

Maybe it's because I never finished college that I don't get this, but I remember when Reagan called the U.S.S.R the "evil empire", and yet China is just as communist, just as oppressive, and just as armed as the Soviet Union was, and we buy all their junk and act like we are best buddies with them.
How is it that China was/is so much better than the Soviet Union was?
Why did we have one standard for the Soviets, and another standard for China? Or was that not the case?

LookingUp · 10-19-2009, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by Dispatcher

Maybe it's because I never finished college that I don't get this, but I remember when Reagan called the U.S.S.R the "evil empire", and yet China is just as communist, just as oppressive, and just as armed as the Soviet Union was, and we buy all their junk and act like we are best buddies with them.

Originally Posted by Dispatcher

How is it that China was/is so much better than the Soviet Union was?
Why did we have one standard for the Soviets, and another standard for China? Or was that not the case?

It is probably because China has also incorporated capitalism into their system. Many American companies and businesses benefit from setting up plants over there where the regulations are fewer and labor is cheap to make the junk we buy here. My brother has a factory over in China for those reasons. So although it is just as oppressive our government looks the other way for economic reasons.

JaJae · 10-19-2009, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by Dispatcher

Maybe it's because I never finished college that I don't get this, but I remember when Reagan called the U.S.S.R the "evil empire", and yet China is just as communist, just as oppressive, and just as armed as the Soviet Union was, and we buy all their junk and act like we are best buddies with them.
How is it that China was/is so much better than the Soviet Union was?
Why did we have one standard for the Soviets, and another standard for China? Or was that not the case?

We have two different standards because of different presidents and political eras. The Cold War started out of WWII.

The US trying to making friends with China and throwing them sweet trade agreements came from Nixon, Ford and then Carter. One of Nixon's first goals when he was elected president was to move on from Johnson and make nice-nice with China and the USSR. It was a policy that followed through to Carter's presidency. During this time our presidents were trying to make friends with China and Russia, but Russia kept invading countries in the Middle East and doing other stupid shit (human rights issues) that hindered Carter from moving forward with the same progress he did with China. Then Reagan came in and started building up our military like we had done during the Cold War and started going after terrorists and such. He was very anti-Communist. Somehow China managed to slip through all the Russia communist crap because the spotlight was always on Russia and they weren't pissing us off.

Dispatcher · 11-24-2009, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by JaJae

We have two different standards because of different presidents and political eras. The Cold War started out of WWII.

The US trying to making friends with China and throwing them sweet trade agreements came from Nixon, Ford and then Carter. One of Nixon's first goals when he was elected president was to move on from Johnson and make nice-nice with China and the USSR. It was a policy that followed through to Carter's presidency. During this time our presidents were trying to make friends with China and Russia, but Russia kept invading countries in the Middle East and doing other stupid shit (human rights issues) that hindered Carter from moving forward with the same progress he did with China. Then Reagan came in and started building up our military like we had done during the Cold War and started going after terrorists and such. He was very anti-Communist. Somehow China managed to slip through all the Russia communist crap because the spotlight was always on Russia and they weren't pissing us off.

Thank you. Very good explanation. I see why China got a pass when Russia did not.

Dispatcher · 11-24-2009, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by LookingUp

It is probably because China has also incorporated capitalism into their system. Many American companies and businesses benefit from setting up plants over there where the regulations are fewer and labor is cheap to make the junk we buy here. My brother has a factory over in China for those reasons. So although it is just as oppressive our government looks the other way for economic reasons.

Good point.

CuriousMoon · 12-05-2009, 02:40 AM

Originally Posted by JaJae

We have two different standards because of different presidents and political eras. The Cold War started out of WWII.

well said, and if I may, I would like to elaborate on what you said in the following:

Originally Posted by JaJae

The US trying to making friends with China and throwing them sweet trade agreements came from Nixon, Ford and then Carter.

After WWII, China was trying to recover from what the Japanese had done to it. It had received nearly the same treatment as had Europe under control of the Nazis with millions dead. Just before the war, China had been in a civil war, but that was halted during the Japanese occupation, with the war over, it resumed its infighting. There were basically two sides in this struggle: one for democracy and the other for communism. With Russia's help, the communist party took over and forced the democratic ones out. They escaped to the Island of Formosa(modern day Taiwan). The U.S. supported the Democratic side. The two sides continued their struggle, but with the U.S. having substantial sea powers, the new communist China, could do little to harm Taiwan. In the meantime, Russia continued its support of communist China, but when they discovered that communist China did not want to be dictated to, they backed off. But, it didn't matter, because by then, the main land had been one.
At this time as mentioned by, JaJae, the U.S. was practicing a policy of anti-communism growth. The U.S. bolstered support of Taiwan by supplying them with weapons and what not. And refused to recognize mainland China as a legitimate government. Some years went by with not much more than threats being slung by both sides.

But, with the desire to make the entire Asian Penisula communist, the father of North Korean Leader, Kim Jong Il, was put in power and he made a push to make all of Korea communist. The Southern Koreans rejected this conversion and asked for U.S. assistance in stopping the aggression of the north. Thus began the Korean Conflict.

leaving out a lot of events, I'll move forward.

Originally Posted by JaJae

One of Nixon's first goals when he was elected president was to move on from Johnson and make nice-nice with China and the USSR.

Yes, Nixon wasn't really part of the scheme to get rich off the war effort. He had no connection to the contractors who were busy making millions. He had a huge domestic situation at home. Hundreds of thousands of American protestors had taken to the streets in mass protests again the War in Vietnam. Nixon ended the war, but knew that he would probably not get re-elected because of the dirty practice of American politics. He tried some dirty tricks of his own but got caught, so he resigned facing impeachment. But, mentioning the war in Vietnam, it was another push to spread communism to another nation. China began supplying the northern Vietnamese with weapons and whatnot, and once again, it worked, however; the U.S. was not as successful as it had been in Korea by halfing the country, this time the U.S. bailed out leaving the country to figure itself out. Near the end of the war, Nixon began negotiations with the Chinese government in an effort to cool tensions. The United Nations, by this time, had accepted mainland China as the legitimate government.
The U.S. began to follow suit.

Originally Posted by JaJae

It was a policy that followed through to Carter's presidency. During this time our presidents were trying to make friends with China and Russia, but Russia kept invading countries in the Middle East and doing other stupid shit (human rights issues) that hindered Carter from moving forward with the same progress he did with China.

also Eastern Europe

President Jimmy Carter tried many things to stop the communist push in the Middle East. By messing with the leadership in Iran, the American Embassy was over run and hostages taken. Knowing that Carter was under-handed and not to be trusted, Iran held onto the hostages until the U.S. changed presidents.

In the meantime, the USSR was busy trying to convert Afghanistan. The U.S. started supporting the Mujahideen to fight against the Soviets with weapons and financial support. The Mujahideen became so powerful as a result, not only did they fight off the Russians, they also took over the entire country of Afghanistan and became known as the Taliban.

Originally Posted by JaJae

Then Reagan came in and started building up our military like we had done during the Cold War and started going after terrorists and such. He was very anti-Communist. Somehow China managed to slip through all the Russia communist crap because the spotlight was always on Russia and they weren't pissing us off.

The Soviet Union had so exhausted itself, that it folded inward, releasing several countries that used to be apart of the Soviet bloc.

But, under Carter, China had softened a great deal. This was primarily because they wanted the U.S to leave Taiwan alone, Hong-Kong was soon to return to Chinese control, and Tibet was seized as well. If they could get the U.S. to back off, then all would be peachy. So, Reagan, a strong proponent of corporate America, as his campaign contributions show, would cut deals to relax on Taiwan for consessions of trade with mainland China. The U.S. already had a gazillion factories in Taiwan, but mainland China offered so much more to the corporate side of America.

China, wanting that island back so desperately, would allow the trade to begin. The factory shuffle began. Reagen's policy of tricle down economics would make the corporations wealthy, but under his predecessor, George H. W. Bush, a shifty eye was cast back in the direction of the Middle East. It seems that the CIA's underhanded treatment of the political shuffles made first in Iran then in Iraq with the installation of Sadam Hussein as head of state, had back fired. When they didn't deliver on their promise of money or Oil, Iraq made a move to take the oil.

It certainly doesn't stop there, because agreements would be made with Saudi Arabia, OPEC, and the Taliban and a few other players, but I hope this helped make JaJae's point. And I appologize if I over-stepped.

JaJae · 12-06-2009, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by CuriousMoon

It certainly doesn't stop there, because agreements would be made with Saudi Arabia, OPEC, and the Taliban and a few other players, but I hope this helped make JaJae's point. And I appologize if I over-stepped.

Not at all. Great post!

Dispatcher · 12-11-2009, 08:38 PM

In other words....politics as usual.

The Great Catpiss · 12-17-2009, 12:48 AM

We have looked the other way on a lot of issues with China due to our greed.

HughRuss · 12-17-2009, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by The Great Catpiss

We have looked the other way on a lot of issues with China due to our greed.

We have a history of this.

CuriousMoon · 12-17-2009, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by The Great Catpiss

We have looked the other way on a lot of issues with China due to our greed.

Corporate greed was allowed by corrupt politicians, so it is the U.S. political system which needs to be fixed or flushed. I feel it is too late for a fix. Though many groups gain public support for reform attempts. Americans just witnessed one such group that gained such widespread approval that from the group out-stepped President Barack Obama. The groups motto, "We are Change." From where I sit, I see no change, well, except my change that rolls out of my pocket and straight to washington.

"Flushing" in the political system is very akin to revolt, and these days there exist anti-terrorism laws which are applied to any group that swells with any dissent of anti-U.S. policy. But, there is hope and there are groups.

Dispatcher · 12-21-2009, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by CuriousMoon

Corporate greed was allowed by corrupt politicians, so it is the U.S. political system which needs to be fixed or flushed.

So shouldn't the Corporations share some of the blame?
Otherwise, it's like a burglar going into someone's house and stealing a TV and then placing all the blame on the homeowner for not locking his doors.

CuriousMoon · 12-21-2009, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by Dispatcher

So shouldn't the Corporations share some of the blame?

Yes, and I think they should get most of the blame. I didn't make that clear. I just didn't want the politicians and federal agencies to get off the hook on this one. They play an intrical part.

trade deals favor only corporations not the American people.