A powerful way to view why Stem Cell research matter

[7960]

Originally Posted by AVengeance

It uses internal erronous definitions instead of correct definitions for "cloning", among other terms.

It uses very clear definitions for cloning. If people don't read the amendment too fucking bad.

It does not ban cloning, as it purports to do.

It bans cloning as defined in the amendment.

It allows payment for womens eggs, something it purpots to prevent.

It disallows payment for eggs for research, it continues to to allow payments for eggs for fertility which is done now.

It creates protections on a state constitutional level, which is unnecessary.

How, exactly?

All Missourians already have access to "treatments" and "cures" supposedly protected by this amendment.

I already have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness but my state put that in our constitution, too. How is that bad?

It creates an environment to shield cloning and stem cell research, and forces counties and cities within the state to allow whatever is allowed in the amendment.

The state sets the laws for the counties and cities. This is no different than the state passing a state-wide highway speed limit.

The amendment guarantees that no future Missouri law can limit the amount of public money poured into this research. That is, if lawmakers in MO want to fund any disease research, they will be forced to give theis kind of "research" equal access to that money.

Well, of your two sentences at least one is right. It does mean that tax dollars will fund this research. It does not mean it will fund *any* research (last box/bullet, Using Your Tax Dollars, link)

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by AVengeance

I understand. Again, I don't care if someone wants to sell their body parts to science; that's their business. What bothers me is that it becomes shielded in this amendment, and the doublespeak used to justify it. This amendment is just unnecessary.

How is selling an egg or sperm selling a body part? It's no more selling a body part than donating blood is giving a body part away. It's more of a body product, like hair, or finger nails or saliva. You're trying to put a negative connotation on something that has none. Selling a kidney is not the same as selling sperm or selling an egg.

[AVengeance]

Originally Posted by 7960

It uses very clear definitions for cloning.

So if a science book clearly states that the Earth is 10,000 years old, that's okay with you? I doubt it. But, strangely, it IS okay with you that a scientific process is being incorrectly defined for the sake of a piece of legislation. I'm truely speechless.

If people don't read the amendment too fucking bad.

I have to agree there. I wish more people would make INFORMED decisions about candidates and ballot issues, rather than hearing the talking points from one side or the other.

It disallows payment for eggs for research, it continues to to allow payments for eggs for fertility which is done now.

unless the eggs are retrieved via a middleman- a fertility clinic. Then the donor can get paid in cashy money. Ovums- it's the new Gold, baby! It also allows other compensation, and we already went through that.

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by AVengeance

but since cloning doesn't involve "fertilization", what does it even matter.

YES IT DOES require fertilization.

[7960]

Originally Posted by AVengeance

So if a science book clearly states that the Earth is 10,000 years old, that's okay with you? I doubt it. But, strangely, it IS okay with you that a scientific process is being incorrectly defined for the sake of a piece of legislation. I'm truely speechless.

Your example is COMPLETELY wrong for this. If a science book says "there are 4 criteria for life" and lists them and then says "viruses are not alive" then I have no problem with that. If you want to argue whether or not viruses are alive, feel free, but ACCORDING TO THE DEFINITION THEY PROVIDED they are right.

Same here. They said "cloning is _______________. We're banning cloning." What does that mean? That means they're banning ______________. If you want to argue _______________ feel free, but according to the definition they gave they are banning cloning.

unless the eggs are retrieved via a middleman- a fertility clinic. Then the donor can get paid in cashy money. Ovums- it's the new Gold, baby! It also allows other compensation, and we already went through that.

Fertility clinics are licensed and a fertility clinic would be shut down if they was caught selling eggs to researchers. Again, all the "what if" shit seems to be covered.

[ballz2wallz]

YouTube Video

Courtesy of your friends here

[7960]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

[yt]A-5Pv5zLBqE&eurl

here

fucking thing has 7 fingers on one hand... ABORT! ABORT!

[nbiggershaft]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

YouTube Video

Courtesy of your friends here

Why the hell does everyone not from missouri call it godamn missoura, we're not all hillbillies.

[nbiggershaft]

Originally Posted by AVengeance

It doesn't matter what disease he has, he's allowing himself and his illness to be exploited to futher the agenda of lying politicians, biotech firms and cloners. The MO amendment is NOT ABOUT STEM CELL RESEARCH, which is ALREADY LEGAL IN MISSOURI, it's to make legal and shield cloning, and provide for forced taxpayer funds for it. If these corporations want to create a clone army or a cure for cancer, they can do it on their own dime.

What are you so worried about, the intention of the amendement included a ban on cloning. If people started cloning under it, it would be re-amended rediculously fast.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

Why the hell does everyone not from missouri call it godamn missoura, we're not all hillbillies.

You're from there? I was born there...

[AVengeance]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

YES IT DOES require fertilization.

No, it doesn't.

Go look it up.

Focus on Social Issues - A Case of Double-Speak: An Answer to Senator Dianne Feinstein

Feinstein’s description of what happens in “research” cloning that is worth examining. Quoting from the Congressional Record, Feinstein says:

“This stem cell research can only take place on an unfertilized egg. This is important because many of the opponents of stem cell research say: Aha, this is an organism capable of being a live being. It is no different than a clump of blood cells. They are alive. Those blood cells are not capable of becoming a human being. . . . An unfertilized egg is not capable of becoming a human being.”1

Let’s start with the definition of human cloning: Cloning intentionally copies the genetic code of one person in order to create another with the same genetic material. Cloning is like sex in that it is a means that may be used to create embryonic human life. Unlike sex, it does not require fertilization. One of the current methods of cloning mammals is called somatic cell nuclear transfer (SCNT), which consists of removing the nucleus of an unfertilized egg and replacing it with the nucleus of a somatic cell from the donor to be cloned. A somatic cell, such as a skin or white blood cell, contains the donor’s DNA or genetic code. Then, instead of fertilization, a small electric pulse is applied to stimulate the cell into the division process. The result is a newly cloned individual who begins the same process of human development that we all experienced.

Dolly the sheep was created using SCNT. Dolly carries the full complement of genetic material to be a sheep, the same as any sheep conceived through fertilization. Just as Dolly is 100 percent sheep, any human entity created by SCNT is 100 percent human.

[AVengeance]

Originally Posted by 7960

Your example is COMPLETELY wrong for this. If a science book says "there are 4 criteria for life" and lists them and then says "viruses are not alive" then I have no problem with that. If you want to argue whether or not viruses are alive, feel free, but ACCORDING TO THE DEFINITION THEY PROVIDED they are right.

That's just stupid.

Same here. They said "cloning is wearing baggy clothes. We're banning cloning." What does that mean? That means they're banning wearing baggy clothes. If you want to argue wearing baggy clothes feel free, but according to the definition they gave they are banning cloning.

But to the rest of the world, that knows full well that wearing baggy clothes has nothing whatsoever to do with somatic cell nuclear transfer cloning, you can still clone in Missouri. It's this kind of lying and changing the meanings of things that tricked Missouri voters into other stupid things they've done in the past, like allowed gambling, and banned gay marriage. They didn't understand the issue correctly, because they were being fed misinformation.

Fertility clinics are licensed and a fertility clinic would be shut down if they was caught selling eggs to researchers. Again, all the "what if" shit seems to be covered.

O'Really? Proof?

[AVengeance]

Originally Posted by 7960

fucking thing has 7 fingers on one hand... ABORT! ABORT!

Hey now! Are you picking on the DISABLED?!? Who are you, Rush Limbaugh?!?

[7960]

Originally Posted by AVengeance

That's just stupid.

Nope. The definition is right there.

O'Really? Proof?

......it's currently illegal to sell a human egg. Fertility clinics often have young women who donate their eggs and are reimbursed for expenses.

TheKansasCityChannel.com - Commitment 2006 - Opponents Say Stem Cell Plan Will Increase Human Egg Sales

It's illegal to sell an egg. I guess I should qualify what I said above... if a fertility clinic sells them to a researcher then the clinic *should* be shut down because it's breaking the law. Better?

[AVengeance]

Originally Posted by 7960

Nope. The definition is right there.

......it's currently illegal to sell a human egg. Fertility clinics often have young women who donate their eggs and are reimbursed for expenses.

TheKansasCityChannel.com - Commitment 2006 - Opponents Say Stem Cell Plan Will Increase Human Egg Sales

It's illegal to sell an egg. I guess I should qualify what I said above... if a fertility clinic sells them to a researcher then the clinic *should* be shut down because it's breaking the law. Better?

It's the same doublespeak as before.

However, the measure also states that the sale or reimbursement by a fertility clinic to an egg donor is permitted.

"You never sell your eggs. You donate. You only get reimbursed for your time and effort," Derek said.

The question is, if you go there and spend your "time and effort" but produce no eggs, do you get the money? If you do produce the eggs, do you get the money? How much money is paid for your "time and effort".

It's just like "buy a new car, get floor mats free". Of course, you can't go there and just get the floor mats- you have to buy the car. The woman is going there to give the eggs to another entity, and come out with money in pocket. It's really not that hard to decypher what's happening.


some food for thought...
CNN Transcript - Crossfire: Should It Be Legal to Buy Human Eggs? - February 10, 2000




SoYouWanna donate an egg?

In March of 1999, an advertisement was placed in the student newspapers of Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, the University of Pennsylvania, and Yale:

Help our dream come true. A loving, caring couple seeking egg donor. Candidates should be intelligent, athletic, blonde, at least 5'10", have a 1400+ SAT score, and possess no major family medical issues. $50,000.

...

The financial compensation

Many women donate their eggs because it's a darn nice thing to do: it doesn't prevent you from having successful pregnancies of your own, and it can make all the difference in the world for a grateful infertile couple who say annoying phrases like "the pitter-patter of little feet." But as you undoubtedly realize, there's also money involved! For you!
All medical fees (the injections, doctor visits, counseling, medical exams, etc.) are paid for by the recipients, but egg donors also receive payment for their participation in a donor cycle. Think of it this way: you are not selling your eggs or your body; you are being compensated for your time and commitment. The sum varies depending on where you live and how good a candidate you are, but compensation from respectable clinics and accredited programs currently ranges between about $2500 and $5000 per cycle (sorry, not per egg). There are cases where you could earn much more, but these strikes are pretty rare.

[nbiggershaft]

Originally Posted by AVengeance

That's just stupid.


But to the rest of the world, that knows full well that wearing baggy clothes has nothing whatsoever to do with somatic cell nuclear transfer cloning, you can still clone in Missouri. It's this kind of lying and changing the meanings of things that tricked Missouri voters into other stupid things they've done in the past, like allowed gambling, and banned gay marriage. They didn't understand the issue correctly, because they were being fed misinformation.


O'Really? Proof?

The gay marriage ban was very explicit. I voted against it, but it definitely said it was about banning gay marriage.

[AVengeance]

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

The gay marriage ban was very explicit. I voted against it, but it definitely said it was about banning gay marriage.

It defined a marriage as between one man and one woman. It also banned polygamy (which means I'd be breaking the law by caring for two women I love very much). Yet some baby-daddy can impregnate ten or twenty of his "bitches" and they all get free government cheese for eighteen years.

There's something very, very wrong in a society that punishes responsible people and rewards irresponsible people.