Grammar makes a comeback:

[Phantom]

Clauses and Commas Make a Comeback - washingtonpost.com

Grammar lessons vanished from public schools in the 1970s, supplanted by a more holistic view of English instruction. A generation of teachers and students learned grammar through the act of writing, not in isolated drills and diagrams.
Today, Greiner is encouraged, even sought out. Direct grammar instruction, long thought to do more harm than good, is welcome once more.

growing consensus among scholars that many high school graduates "can't write well enough to get a passing grade from a professor on a paper," drove the addition of a third section to the SAT, upending decades of balance between reading and math, said Ed Hardin, a content specialist at the College Board.

"What you have is a generation of teachers from the early to mid-'70s who don't know grammar, who never learned it," said Benjamin, an author of the national council's publication. "We have armies of teachers, elementary teachers and English teachers, who don't have the language to talk about language. It's kind of their dirty little secret."

I didn't know public schools gave up grammar instruction, but this fact explains why I have to struggle to read so much crap here at work. Everyone should have to go through what I went through - an angry old nun with a ruler taunting students as they attempt to diagram sentences in front of the class. It's painful as a child, but pays dividends in the future.

I guess it's possible for the most intuitive students to pick up grammar through reading & writing, but I don't think it could work or has worked for the masses.

How many of you guys/gals had formal grammar instruction in elementary or even high school? By formal instruction, I mean diagrams of sentences, when to use commas etc ?

[7960]

Originally Posted by Phantom

I didn't know public schools gave up grammar instruction,....

I still have friends who teach HS. They hand out F grades like candy because they get papers typed like the kids type in chatrooms. Seeing shit like

in 1492 Chris colombos sayled the ocena blue LOL.

wouldn't be uncommon, including the missing capitalization, missing comma, typos, and extra shit. My history teacher friend is getting very discouraged. Early in the year she's taken to telling kids papers are due a day earlier than usual so she can circle all that shit and put a big F on the paper and let them fix it and hand it in again. She even goes over proper research paper formats and they still fuck it up.

How many of you guys/gals had formal grammar instruction in elementary or even high school? By formal instruction, I mean diagrams of sentences, when to use commas etc ?

Yep...elementary school.

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by 7960

Early in the year she's taken to telling kids papers are due a day earlier than usual so she can circle all that shit and put a big F on the paper and let them fix it and hand it in again. She even goes over proper research paper formats and they still fuck it up.

Good stuff. I'm sure the kids hate her for it, but they will be better off in the end.

[hsmith]

Even though it doesn't show today, my private school used to do all that phonics stuff. I never understood why public schools didn't

Until I realized what public schools were

[Publius]

I had a lot of grammar instruction in high school. I was in the "advanced" english class, called Rennaissance or Pre-A/P, and had to do sentence diagramming from 9th through 11th grade.

A lot of students hated it, even at that level of supposed intellect. I didn't mind it so much; I've always been fairly intuitive with that kind of stuff.

[WickedLou9]

I did in elementary school.

[JaJae]

Not to take it off topic, but math skills are also lacking. Year after year my employees are less likely to be able to make change in their heads. 16-19 year olds unable to figure the change of 13.24 from a $20 bill. They give them calculators too early and don't require them to do the basic math.

It's truly embarrassing. The town I work in is one of the richest counties in America. They have a "Blue Ribbon School of Excellency" and half their students can't make change in their heads.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Not to take it off topic, but math skills are also lacking. Year after year my employees are less likely to be able to make change in their heads. 16-19 year olds unable to figure the change of 13.24 from a $20 bill. They give them calculators too early and don't require them to do the basic math.

It's truly embarrassing. The town I work in is one of the richest counties in America. They have a "Blue Ribbon School of Excellency" and half their students can't make change in their heads.

My wife is doing a new kind of math program in her school. I forget what it's called, but aparently it works very well. It's the same sort of program that they use in other countries that are doing better than we are. Her friggin second graders can do more math in thier heads than I can.
It's not "new math". It's something else. I forget the name of it.
Maybe it will catch on.

[IminWonderland]

Well, as an English major I've been suprised as to how little I know about technical Grammar Elementary, Jr High, OR High school, and for an English Degree, you have to pass a Grammar course (I took the easier one.) and I was SHOCKED as to how hard it was for me to tear apart a simple sentence. I know the rules, I know how to use commas, semicolons, elipses, capitilization and all that jazz, and I am an adept writer, but I did feel cheated that I didn't get prepped for grammar at the college level previous. And I believe that with acquiring language, there comes a point of no return to re-learn it. I think they need to teach these things early, in Elementary school.

But I think that the papers that your friend was getting, that's a sign of the times. Kids aren't just using typewriters and computers for writing papers like they used to, now they use them for communication. Many of them are too lazy to codeswitch, and that's something that needs to be taught.

[Galactic Gigolo]

Read OT for five minutes and you'll see that this report is quite correct.

[Kytro]

The problem is many math classes are becoming "calculator operating" classes instead.

Who cares if you can press a bunch of buttons in the right order the concepts count.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by Kytro

The problem is many math classes are becoming "calculator operating" classes instead.

Who cares if you can press a bunch of buttons in the right order the concepts count.

I found out what the program was called. "Everyday Math"
UCSMP: Everyday Mathematics

This is an example from 2nd graders.


My wife uses this exercise in her class actually. I think the idea is that they are given a number and the kids have to come up with as many ways as they can think of to get to that number.
It's crazy, they are writing roman numerals, adding 7 different numbers together and stuff.

I believe they are also taught to do math "backwards" where you start with the largest decimal place and work backwards. For some reason it's more intuitive and they can do addition in thier heads more easily.

[7960]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

I found out what the program was called. "Everyday Math"
UCSMP: Everyday Mathematics

This is an example from 2nd graders.

http://everydaymath.uchicago.edu/students/images/2nd/Lynnhaven12.gif[/IMG]

My wife uses this exercise in her class actually. I think the idea is that they are given a number and the kids have to come up with as many ways as they can think of to get to that number.
It's crazy, they are writing roman numerals, adding 7 different numbers together and stuff.

I believe they are also taught to do math "backwards" where you start with the largest decimal place and work backwards. For some reason it's more intuitive and they can do addition in thier heads more easily.

I taught math for...years....but have since left teaching. To fill my teaching fix I volunteer in my son's school. That Everyday Math is the curriculum they're using and it seems to work. The biggest obstacle is (of course) the parents because now their kids are doing math different than their kids. I want to slap a parent every time I hear "when we're doing homework I just tell johnny 'do it like this instead'." You fucking MORAN!!! You're screwing yoru kid up!!!

/rant

thanks



edit:

to add 12 + 15 they'd go

..12
+15
..2..
...7
..27

to add 15 + 16 they'd go

..15
+16
..2..
..11
..31

Parents HATE it but it actually is easier.

[ballz2wallz]

Ebonics is taking over.

[7960]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Ebonics is taking over.

ebonics *be* takin' over

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by 7960

I taught math for...years....but have since left teaching. To fill my teaching fix I volunteer in my son's school. That Everyday Math is the curriculum they're using and it seems to work. The biggest obstacle is (of course) the parents because now their kids are doing math different than their kids. I want to slap a parent every time I hear "when we're doing homework I just tell johnny 'do it like this instead'." You fucking MORAN!!! You're screwing yoru kid up!!!

If there is a new system, I think the parents really need to at least be on notice, and maybe be taught how to best assist in the child's learning. I can see where the help of parents would be counterproductive if the kids learn the new way in school, but the parents push the old method.

[7960]

Originally Posted by Phantom

If there is a new system, I think the parents really need to at least be on notice, and maybe be taught how to best assist in the child's learning. I can see where the help of parents would be counterproductive if the kids learn the new way in school, but the parents push the old method.

My son's in second grade. At the beginning of 1st grade and again this year (and it's going to happen for the next 3 years because Everyday Math is a 5 year program) there's a notice sent home. The teachers run workshops to explain how they're doing math. There were two teachers who ran 6 workshops each (so 12 total) last year. Each workshop was the exact same and lasted 30 minutes. Some were morning, some were during the day, some were at evening as late at 7:30pm.

There was also a post-workshop notice that went home that gave the handouts used in the workshop, annotated so people who couldn't make it *should* be able to read and figure it out for themselves (I mean come on, this is still 1st grade math) and a note that said "if you couldn't make one of the scheduled workshops please call and we can set up a time to meet one-on-one."

cliffs: parents had PLENTY of notice, PLENTY of opportunity, PLENTY of information. Some are choosing not to take advantage of it and will end up fucking up their kids in the process.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by 7960

edit:

to add 12 + 15 they'd go

..12
+15
..2..
...7
..27

to add 15 + 16 they'd go

..15
+16
..2..
..11
..31

Parents HATE it but it actually is easier.

That's kinda screwy looking to me, but I can understand how it can be easier for kids.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by 7960

My son's in second grade. At the beginning of 1st grade and again this year (and it's going to happen for the next 3 years because Everyday Math is a 5 year program) there's a notice sent home. The teachers run workshops to explain how they're doing math. There were two teachers who ran 6 workshops each (so 12 total) last year. Each workshop was the exact same and lasted 30 minutes. Some were morning, some were during the day, some were at evening as late at 7:30pm.

There was also a post-workshop notice that went home that gave the handouts used in the workshop, annotated so people who couldn't make it *should* be able to read and figure it out for themselves (I mean come on, this is still 1st grade math) and a note that said "if you couldn't make one of the scheduled workshops please call and we can set up a time to meet one-on-one."

cliffs: parents had PLENTY of notice, PLENTY of opportunity, PLENTY of information. Some are choosing not to take advantage of it and will end up fucking up their kids in the process.

Yeah that's a problem too. The parents never want to get involved these days. They expect the schools to handle everything. Then if the school doens't want to , or can't, handle something, the parents want to sue.

[7960]

Originally Posted by Publius

That's kinda screwy looking to me, but I can understand how it can be easier for kids.

Start on the left and add moving right...there's no carrying. If you learn that way it's easier. Like I said, I taught math and thought this Everyday Math thing was insane. She didn't know I was a teacher when I went to the workshop and at the end I realized how kids' brains could find this easier if they started learning to add this way. Later (I'd been volunteering in the classroom for months) she asked what I did because my son mentioned something about me having taught. I told her I was a HS math teacher and she said "oh, so you hate this new math then?" and i said "no, I hated the other 'new math', this one seems to work."

"new math" for those who don't know what I'm talking about
New math - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia