Partisan Bickering

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by article

Obama takes tough questions from House GOP
January 29, 2010 3:58 p.m. EST

Baltimore, Maryland (CNN) -- President Obama and House GOP leaders promised greater efforts to step back from the partisan brink Friday, acknowledging that Washington's toxic political climate has made it increasingly tough to tackle major problems.
The pledge was immediately called into question, however, as the two parties repeatedly expressed sharply differing viewpoints during a rare meeting at a House Republican retreat in Baltimore.
Obama accepted an invitation from House GOP leaders to address their caucus. His speech Friday was followed by an often testy question-and-answer session.
"House Republican leaders are grateful for [Obama's] willingness to come ... and have a frank and honest conversation," said Rep. Mike Pence, R-Indiana. "We welcome the dialogue with the president."

The president accused Republicans of frequently mischaracterizing his policy proposals, particularly in the health care debate.
Republicans, in turn, complained the White House and congressional Democrats had ignored their ideas, locked them out of the policy-making process and unfairly labeled them as obstructionists.
"Both sides can take some blame for a sour climate on Capitol Hill," Obama said, adding that Democrats and Republicans need to be careful in choosing their rhetoric. "A ton of civility instead of slash and burn would be helpful."
The president highlighted what he said was problematic GOP rhetoric on his health care proposals. Republicans, he said, had characterized the proposed program as some "kind of Bolshevik plot."
In fact, he said that much of his plan was similar to what Republicans had proposed during the failed Clinton-era push to overhaul health care.
Both sides need to "close the gap a little bit between rhetoric and reality," the president argued. Calling his health care plan "some wild-eyed plot to impose big government in every aspect of our lives" leaves little room for bipartisan negotiation, Obama said.
The president questioned how Republicans could negotiate in good faith after using such rhetoric without exposing themselves to conservative primary challengers.
House Minority Leader John Boehner, R-Ohio, said he tried to be honest about differences over administration proposals.
"I truly believe a government takeover of health care ... is the essence of their bill," Boehner said.
Obama conceded there's been a failure on his part to "try to foster better communications even if there's disagreement."
He has promised regular meetings with GOP leaders in the future. Boehner welcomed the gesture but said it is equally important for House Speaker Nancy Pelosi to give Republicans a greater role in the legislative process.
Bipartisanship "isn't about taking one little Republican idea and throwing it in a 2,000-page bill," he said after Obama argued that Democratic leaders had taken GOP proposals into account in the health care debate.
"If you're really serious about building a bipartisan product ... you need to do it from the beginning."
Republicans criticized the president for failing to fulfill a promise to televise all the health care negotiations on C-SPAN. Obama called the criticism "legitimate" but noted the overwhelming majority of committee hearings on the legislation had been conducted in front of TV cameras.
After the bills had cleared the committees, however, it became a "messy process," he conceded.
"I take responsibility for not having structured it in a way where it was all taking place in one place that could be filmed," he said.
Obama and Republicans strongly criticized each other on a range of issues tied to taxes and spending.
GOP leaders said Obama's $862 billion stimulus plan had been ineffective and repeatedly urged the president to consider an across-the-board tax cut.
Obama said it would be wrong to slash taxes for the richest Americans or the banking sector in a weak economy. He also argued that the stimulus program had saved key jobs in GOP districts across the country.
"There is not a single person in here who, had it not been for what was in the stimulus package, wouldn't be going home to more teachers laid off, more firefighters laid off, more cops laid off," he said.
"The component parts of the Recovery Act are consistent" with what many Republicans say are important, he said.
The stimulus helped in terms of "rebuilding our infrastructure, tax cuts for families and businesses, and making sure that we were providing states and individuals some support when the roof was caving in."
The president said he agrees with the GOP emphasis on fiscal responsibility but hinted that Republicans could do more to help control spending, including curtailing legislative earmark requests for their own districts.
He also said he is willing to work with Republicans on the enactment of a line-item veto.
"There's not a president out there that wouldn't like that," he said.
Despite their disagreements, both sides agreed the day's dialogue was a step in the right direction.
"I hope that the conversation we begin here doesn't end here, that we can continue our dialogue in the days ahead," Obama said.
The day "went very well," Boehner replied later. "There are issues we do agree on" and Republicans will work to find "common ground."
We should "set aside perhaps the things that the president believes in that we philosophically don't, but if there is some common ground we ought to go ahead forward with those," said Rep. Eric Cantor, R-Virginia.
Friday's meeting, he said, was "the kind of discussion, frankly, that we need to have more of."

Step in the right direction. I'm quite sick of the bullshit in all honesty. What Republican's don't realize though is that their misrepresentation of Obama's policies sometimes lead the Democrats to freeze them out. What Democrats don't realize is freezing them out leads to the misrepresentation in other situations. It's bullshit. They're essentially doing nothing. Accomplishing nothing.

[Donkey®]

And to be "Fair and Balanced" here's the Fox version of events...

Originally Posted by article

In a remarkably sharp face-to-face confrontation, President Obama chastised Republican lawmakers Friday for opposing him on taxes, health care and the economic stimulus, while they accused him in turn of brushing off their ideas and driving up the national debt.

The president and GOP House members took turns questioning and sometimes lecturing each other for more than hour at a Republican gathering in Baltimore. The Republicans agreed to let TV cameras inside, resulting in an extended, point-by-point interchange that was almost unprecedented in U.S. politics, except perhaps during presidential debates.

With voters angry about partisanship and legislative logjams, both sides were eager to demonstrate they were ready to cooperate, resulting in the GOP invitation and Obama's acceptance. After polite introductions, however, Friday's exchange showed that Obama and the Republicans remain far apart on key issues, and neither side could resist the chance to challenge and even scold the other.

Obama said Republican lawmakers have attacked his health care overhaul so fiercely, "you'd think that this thing was some Bolshevik plot." His proposals are mainstream, widely supported ideas, he said, and they deserve some GOP votes in Congress.

"I am not an ideologue," the president declared.

But Rep. Tom Price, R-Ga., pointedly asked Obama: "What should we tell our constituents who know that Republicans have offered positive solutions" for health care, "and yet continue to hear out of the administration that we've offered nothing?"

Obama showed little sympathy, disputing Price's claim that a Republican plan would insure nearly all Americans without raising taxes.

"That's just not true," said Obama. He called such claims "boilerplate" meant to score political points.

At times it seemed more like Britain's "question time" -- when lawmakers in the House of Commons trade barbs with the prime minister -- than a meeting between a U.S. president and members of Congress.

Republican Conference Chairman Mike Pence of Indiana defended Price on the health care proposals. He said a GOP agenda booklet given to Obama at the start of the session "is backed up by precisely the kind of detailed legislation that Speaker (Nancy) Pelosi and your administration have been busy ignoring for 12 months."

Obama shot back that he had read the Republican proposals and that they promise solutions that can't be realized.

In another barbed exchange, the president said some Republican lawmakers in the audience had attended ribbon-cutting ceremonies for projects in their districts funded by the 2009 stimulus package that they voted against.

Pence said Obama was trying to defend "a so-called stimulus that was a piecemeal list of projects and boutique tax cuts."

Obama replied, "When you say they were boutique tax cuts, Mike, 95 percent of working Americans got tax cuts."

"This notion that this was a radical package is just not true," he said.

Republicans are feeling energized after winning a Democratic Senate seat in Massachusetts, and Obama is trying to refocus his stalled agenda more on jobs than health care. With Obama at a podium facing a hotel conference room full of Republicans, both sides jumped to the debate.

"It was the kind of discussion that we frankly need to have more of," said House Republican Whip Eric Cantor of Virginia.

"I'm having fun, this is great," Obama said when Pence asked if he had time for more questions.

"So are we," said Pence.

Some Republicans prefaced their questions with lengthy recitations of conservative talking points. The president sometimes listened impassively but sometimes broke in.

"I know there's a question in there somewhere, because you're making a whole bunch of assertions, half of which I disagree with," Obama said to Rep. Jeb Hensarling of Texas, whom he mistakenly called "Jim."

Obama, a former law school professor, launched into lectures of his own at times. He warned lawmakers from both parties against demonizing a political opponent, because voters might find it incomprehensible if the two sides ever agree on anything.

"We've got to be careful about what we say about each other sometimes, because it boxes us in in ways that makes it difficult for us to work together because our constituents start believing us," Obama said. "So just a tone of civility instead of slash-and-burn would be helpful."

Republicans sat attentively for the most part. There was some grumbling when Obama remarked -- after being pressed about closed-door health care negotiations -- that much of the legislation was developed in congressional committees in front of television cameras.

"That was a messy process," Obama said.

GOP lawmakers pressured him to support a presidential line-item veto for spending bills and to endorse across-the-board tax cuts. Obama said he was ready to talk about the budget proposal, though he disputed accusations that his administration was to blame for big increases in deficit spending. And he demurred on the idea of cutting everyone's taxes, saying with a smile that billionaires don't need tax cuts.

In his opening remarks, Obama criticized what he said was a Washington culture driven by opinion polls and nonstop political campaigns.

"I don't believe that the American people want us to focus on our job security, they want us to focus on their job security," he said.

The president acknowledged that Republicans have joined Democrats in some efforts, such as sending more U.S. troops to Afghanistan. But he said he was disappointed and perplexed by virtually unanimous GOP opposition to other programs, such as the economic stimulus bill.

Rep. Paul Ryan, R-Wis., said of the event, "In some places I kind of felt like I was in my high school assembly being lectured by my principal. In others, I felt like he was listening."

[Swift]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Step in the right direction. I'm quite sick of the bullshit in all honesty. What Republican's don't realize though is that their misrepresentation of Obama's policies sometimes lead the Democrats to freeze them out. What Democrats don't realize is freezing them out leads to the misrepresentation in other situations. It's bullshit. They're essentially doing nothing. Accomplishing nothing.

Wouldn't that be great! If they did nothing I mean. Because every time government does something to its citizens it takes labor and our freedom from some or all of the citizens.

Just have them spin their wheels for a while and come up with something decent. Like Clinton did with welfare reform.

BTW, if the stimulus was about saving local government jobs like teachers, fireman and police then they should've just SAID that. Instead of the false image they put out about helping the private sector. If it was about local government jobs I think that makes sense to a point if the local areas are really hurting. But Obama put it out at as a stimulus bill for the whole economy, not just local government employees. Though we all know he wants the number of government employees to rise.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by Swift

Wouldn't that be great! If they did nothing I mean. Because every time government does something to its citizens it takes labor and our freedom from some or all of the citizens.

Just have them spin their wheels for a while and come up with something decent. Like Clinton did with welfare reform.

BTW, if the stimulus was about saving local government jobs like teachers, fireman and police then they should've just SAID that. Instead of the false image they put out about helping the private sector. If it was about local government jobs I think that makes sense to a point if the local areas are really hurting. But Obama put it out at as a stimulus bill for the whole economy, not just local government employees. Though we all know he wants the number of government employees to rise.

So your claim is that NO private sector jobs were saved at all? Quite a grandiose claim.

[DosEquis]

The video of that is available on the web some place. Its an entertaining watch, and actually very good.

[Swift]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

So your claim is that NO private sector jobs were saved at all? Quite a grandiose claim.

No, I'm saying if they're going to spend a trillion dollars, it would be nice if they actually saved/created some jobs for none government workers.

They would've gotten a much better stimulus to the economy to cut taxes about 25%. But that would've made sense. JFK and Regan got it, but Obama doesn't. I don't get it.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by Swift

No, I'm saying if they're going to spend a trillion dollars, it would be nice if they actually saved/created some jobs for none government workers.

They would've gotten a much better stimulus to the economy to cut taxes about 25%. But that would've made sense. JFK and Regan got it, but Obama doesn't. I don't get it.

Bernacke spanned both the Bush and the Obama white house administrations...he seems to think the stimulus was a good idea. Obama doesn't just do things to do things...his advisors advise him. So claiming Obama doesn't get it is stupid.

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by Swift

They would've gotten a much better stimulus to the economy to cut taxes about 25%. But that would've made sense. JFK and Regan got it, but Obama doesn't. I don't get it.

The Obama stimulus bill included the largest tax cuts in US history.


It kind of makes you guys look retarded when you complain that he needs to cut taxes.

[Swift]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Bernacke spanned both the Bush and the Obama white house administrations...he seems to think the stimulus was a good idea. Obama doesn't just do things to do things...his advisors advise him. So claiming Obama doesn't get it is stupid.

So bernanke was in while Bush was in so that means he's good at what he does?

Obama doesn't get it. Actually, I think he does, he simply doesn't want to do the things that relinquish power and money from the government's hands.

Originally Posted by Scrum

The Obama stimulus bill included the largest tax cuts in US history.


It kind of makes you guys look retarded when you complain that he needs to cut taxes.

I read the articles and some others. I'm trying to find the place where the citizens get to keep more money without going through more stupid red tape crap. The make work pay thing? Come on, why not just lower the whole tax burden whatever percentage points. The ridiculous tax credits for keeping jobs or hiring workers is dumb just because it costs far more to have someone gainfully employed with a living wage then the tax credit even gets close to.

Yeah, I'm pretty much ripping the stimulus package because it won't do, and hasn't done what he said it would.

[stolz25]

It doesn't matter if you raise the deficit by increasing spending or cutting taxes, both are bad in the long run. Reagan didn't get it. JFK didn't get it. Bush didn't get it, and Bernanke definitely doesn't get it.

[Swift]

Originally Posted by stolz25

It doesn't matter if you raise the deficit by increasing spending or cutting taxes, both are bad in the long run. Reagan didn't get it. JFK didn't get it. Bush didn't get it, and Bernanke definitely doesn't get it.

Of course, every time they have lowered taxes on capital gains and income the revenues have gone up. So if the government could find a way to NOT grow by leaps and bounds every year we may be able to get to a balanced budget in a few decades.

[stolz25]

Originally Posted by Swift

Of course, every time they have lowered taxes on capital gains and income the revenues have gone up.

There is of course a logical limit to this, since if the taxes were 0% the revenues would have to be 0.

Originally Posted by Swift

So if the government could find a way to NOT grow by leaps and bounds every year we may be able to get to a balanced budget in a few decades.

Yep, but the people you mentioned who "got it" didn't manage to get this done.

[Swift]

Originally Posted by stolz25

There is of course a logical limit to this, since if the taxes were 0% the revenues would have to be 0.

Of course, but look at the Bush tax cuts and the increased revenue to the government.

Yep, but the people you mentioned who "got it" didn't manage to get this done.

While it's true the president is the figure head, all budgetary matters come from congress, so I put the fully on their shoulders. If the congress wanted to shrink the budget, it could. They simply do not want to.

[stolz25]

Originally Posted by Swift

While it's true the president is the figure head, all budgetary matters come from congress, so I put the fully on their shoulders. If the congress wanted to shrink the budget, it could.

Of course, but if you are going to give Bush the credit for cutting taxes (which congress did) then you can't absolve him for the huge increase in deficit spending on his watch.

[Swift]

Originally Posted by stolz25

Of course, but if you are going to give Bush the credit for cutting taxes (which congress did) then you can't absolve him for the huge increase in deficit spending on his watch.

Nope, but isn't it cute how when things are going well, everyone works together to make them worse?

As far as Bush's spending goes, if he didn't invade Iraq(yes, that was a bad move) then the spending wouldn't have been nearly as bad. A lot of it was due to earmarks and amendments to military spending bills that the congress put on. But such is how our bloated, lethargic, over powered and oversized federal government works.

[stolz25]

Originally Posted by Swift

As far as Bush's spending goes, if he didn't invade Iraq(yes, that was a bad move) then the spending wouldn't have been nearly as bad.

Well if Obama didn't pass giant stimulus bills then his spending wouldn't have been nearly as bad. See how that works? In fact, as you have already mentioned, Congress passed those, not Obama, while Bush did in fact invade Iraq. So really, Bush was much worse in terms of increasing the deficit than Obama has been.

The republicans make just as much use of our lethargic overbloated government as the democrats do.

[Swift]

Originally Posted by stolz25

Well if Obama didn't pass giant stimulus bills then his spending wouldn't have been nearly as bad. See how that works? In fact, as you have already mentioned, Congress passed those, not Obama, while Bush did in fact invade Iraq. So really, Bush was much worse in terms of increasing the deficit than Obama has been.

The republicans make just as much use of our lethargic overbloated government as the democrats do.

Bush invaded Iraq with consent of congress. So it's the same as passing the ridiculous stimulus bill.

There is some point to what you said about Republicans growing government. Especially with homeland security. The last republican to really try to shrink the government was Regan and he was, at most, moderately successful.

[DosEquis]

Originally Posted by Swift

Of course, but look at the Bush tax cuts and the increased revenue to the government.

While it's true the president is the figure head, all budgetary matters come from congress, so I put the fully on their shoulders. If the congress wanted to shrink the budget, it could. They simply do not want to.

I would argue the direct correlation between tax cuts and increased revenue is minimal.

There is economic growth and decline almost regardless of tax level. 10% taxes or 40% taxes, we've seen growth.

When the economy is doing well there are increased revenues from taxes. When the economy sucks, the revenue drops.

[stolz25]

Originally Posted by Swift

The last republican to really try to shrink the government was Regan and he was, at most, moderately successful.

You have any sort of data to back this up? I can't find anything showing him decreasing the size of government by any measure.

[Swift]

Originally Posted by stolz25

You have any sort of data to back this up? I can't find anything showing him decreasing the size of government by any measure.

I meant in compared to other administrations. I'm sure the size grew, but simply not as much as say, Bush Jr.