US kills 80 at religious school in Pakistan - Page 2

nbiggershaft · 10-30-2006, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

No, because it's here. If a terrorist is hiding out in a school or mosque or gay baby whale sanctuary over there, yes.

I'm sure it'll get your panties in a knot but

we >>>>>>> them
here >>>>>>> there
americans >>>>>>>> non-

The leaders of every major post WW2 country disagree.

Donkey® · 10-30-2006, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by ethyl

I've yet to hear any reports specifically saying that children were killed. These bodies look pretty adult to me.

What a ridiculous contention. Who knows what the fuck is under the sheets.

motivez · 10-30-2006, 05:29 PM

I wasn't talking about this situation.. I haven't seen any reports of that either.

I was asking a general question about how many deaths would be justifiable if it meant getting Osama, and whether or not it would matter if they were children, etc..

It's a moral dilemma that I grapple with when it comes to these situations, because while I'd like to see us blast him to hell, I have reservations about going ahead with a mission that would kill a great many people just to get him.. I'm not sure that kind of operation honors those who died on 9/11/

7960 · 10-30-2006, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Thats a great point, they're the ones that are actually putting these other lives at risk by hiding in their homes, schools and churches. A point that is all too often overlooked. That doesn't mean we shouldn't use discretion but we seem to be a little too soft in this area.

I remember the outrage the first time we fired into that huge cemetary area in iraq. It was hallowed ground and we'd been avoiding it for weeks/month. The thing nobody talked about was the fact that the insurgents were hiding in the cemetary and coming out to shoot and then running back in. IMO the first time a bullet flew out of that area we should have leveled it.

Same for the mosques...we were avoiding firing at mosques and THEY were using them to snipe our troops. Fuck that...if a bullet comes from a mosque, flatten it.

This is no different IMO. Al Queda #2 hiding in a school? Class is out.

ethyl · 10-30-2006, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

What a ridiculous contention. Who knows what the fuck is under the sheets.

Right, maybe they put pillows under there.

7960 · 10-30-2006, 05:57 PM

it's a "religious school" but it was "used as a militant training camp"...... this is not a daycare.

Intelligence said there were "70-80 militants ... hiding in a madrassa used as a terrorist training facility." An eyewitness said it was locals..... why is the eyewitness right and the intelligence wrong?

6SpeedTA95 · 10-30-2006, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

So in your mind it's justifiable to kill how many people if it means we kill Osama?

3000ish so it's an eye for an eye with those who died on 9/11? Would it matter if they were children?

I just think it's dangerous to be so willing to devalue human life, even if the revenge is justified.. which it would be in the case of Osama.

So we allow the person to stay alive and orchestrate more attacks?

6SpeedTA95 · 10-30-2006, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

I remember the outrage the first time we fired into that huge cemetary area in iraq. It was hallowed ground and we'd been avoiding it for weeks/month. The thing nobody talked about was the fact that the insurgents were hiding in the cemetary and coming out to shoot and then running back in. IMO the first time a bullet flew out of that area we should have leveled it.

Same for the mosques...we were avoiding firing at mosques and THEY were using them to snipe our troops. Fuck that...if a bullet comes from a mosque, flatten it.

This is no different IMO. Al Queda #2 hiding in a school? Class is out.

Thats correct, I do agree.

Donkey® · 10-30-2006, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

it's a "religious school" but it was "used as a militant training camp"...... this is not a daycare.

Intelligence said there were "70-80 militants ... hiding in a madrassa used as a terrorist training facility." An eyewitness said it was locals..... why is the eyewitness right and the intelligence wrong?

Because of our track record with intelligence. People lie to get things. We believe those lies and act on them with no proof. Instead of bombing shit from 30,000 feet why not insert a team and arrest people so verification can be made?

Donkey® · 10-30-2006, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

I remember the outrage the first time we fired into that huge cemetary area in iraq. It was hallowed ground and we'd been avoiding it for weeks/month. The thing nobody talked about was the fact that the insurgents were hiding in the cemetary and coming out to shoot and then running back in. IMO the first time a bullet flew out of that area we should have leveled it.

Same for the mosques...we were avoiding firing at mosques and THEY were using them to snipe our troops. Fuck that...if a bullet comes from a mosque, flatten it.

This is no different IMO. Al Queda #2 hiding in a school? Class is out.

Same thing here...SEND TROOPS IN. SEND ENOUGH TROOPS IN TO ARREST OR KILL EVERYONE SHOOTING AT THEM. We want to police the world, let's start policing and stop random terroristic bombings.

Diamond Cross · 10-30-2006, 06:22 PM

I tentatively agree with this point:

You can't negotiate with terrorists, nor can they be allowed to have a safe haven anywhere they are. Even on home soil. You can not allow them to strike with impunity from a safe harbor. They will only win.

But the problem does lie in that they do use non-combative ciivillians on purpose as shields to garner support for their cause.

It's a screwy situation, especially for those who do value lives. It's the kind of thing that can tear a person apart because they had to go through civillians to get at the real target. And there are no real easy answers.

This is what gives terrorists power.

IminWonderland · 10-30-2006, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

No, because it's here. If a terrorist is hiding out in a school or mosque or gay baby whale sanctuary over there, yes.

I'm sure it'll get your panties in a knot but

we >>>>>>> them
here >>>>>>> there
americans >>>>>>>> non-

I knew they didn't hate us for our freedom...

THIS is why they hate us and have waged a war on us like they have.

7960 · 10-30-2006, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

I knew they didn't hate us for our freedom...

THIS is why they hate us and have waged a war on us like they have.

ask a frenchman and he'd say france >>> anywhere
ask an iraqi and he'd say iraq >>>>>> anywhere
ask a japanese and he'd say japan >>>>> anywhere

but ask an american and have him say it and "WE MUST WAGE WAR AGAINST THE WHITE DEVIL OPPRESSORS!!!"

motivez · 10-30-2006, 07:08 PM

That's not what she's getting at, though. I think because we're trying to fight extremists without turning the Muslim world against us (lol? more than they are now, i guess).. we have to walk a tight rope when it comes to how we carry out missions like these.

I'm not saying this one was wrong, or that we shouldn't go after Osama or Zawahiri, I just think that if we do, we should be mindful of who might get caught in the crossfire.

IminWonderland · 10-30-2006, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

That's not what she's getting at, though. I think because we're trying to fight extremists without turning the Muslim world against us (lol? more than they are now, i guess).. we have to walk a tight rope when it comes to how we carry out missions like these.

I'm not saying this one was wrong, or that we shouldn't go after Osama or Zawahiri, I just think that if we do, we should be mindful of who might get caught in the crossfire.

That is absolutley what I'm trying to say with regards to the

America > Everyone else

Great, we were the big bad Daddy in the world. And now, we look like friggin idiots because of Iraq. And the people that we are fighting are part of a much larger community than just their country. If we are going to fight them we are walking a very tight rope, and we haven't walked that rope very well.

nbiggershaft · 10-30-2006, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

ask a frenchman and he'd say france >>> anywhere
ask an iraqi and he'd say iraq >>>>>> anywhere
ask a japanese and he'd say japan >>>>> anywhere

but ask an american and have him say it and "WE MUST WAGE WAR AGAINST THE WHITE DEVIL OPPRESSORS!!!"

We all have fond memories of what those countries, save france I suppose, did when they felt others lives were not very important. This is why we have warcrimes, why we enforce them every now and then, and why the geneva convention was signed.

7960 · 10-30-2006, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

That's not what she's getting at, though. I think because we're trying to fight extremists without turning the Muslim world against us (lol? more than they are now, i guess).. we have to walk a tight rope when it comes to how we carry out missions like these.

I'm not saying this one was wrong, or that we shouldn't go after Osama or Zawahiri, I just think that if we do, we should be mindful of who might get caught in the crossfire.

and I think we need to point a finger and say "See that cemetary? They're shooting at us from there. If another bullet comes out you can blame THEM when it's flat. See that mosque? They're shooting at us from there. If another bullet comes out you can blame THEM when it's flat. See that school? They're hiding the #2 al queda guy in there. You can blame THEM that it's flat.

Will it work? I doubt it. But at least it's honest and at least it's an effort to try to minimize the amount of american casualties.

7960 · 10-30-2006, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

We all have fond memories of what those countries, save france I suppose, did when they felt others lives were not very important. This is why we have warcrimes, why we enforce them every now and then, and why the geneva convention was signed.

If you harbor a terrorist, you are a terrorist.

Diamond Cross · 10-30-2006, 07:25 PM

Even if the terrorist is pointing a firearm at the back of the head?

IminWonderland · 10-30-2006, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

If you harbor a terrorist, you are a terrorist.

With us or against us...