Waco: Who was to blame?

AVengeance · 10-30-2006, 11:18 AM

Sounds like it's about time for a new Waco slaughter.

Just need some democrats in office (it's the whole good-cop bad-cop thing).

If you think the Branch Davidians killed themselves, if you think they lived in a "compound" or "bunker", or if you think those wackos "had it coming" you should check out the documentaries on it.

There were groups calling for Waco rememberance, and to call April 19th "Patriot's Day". Of course, the government got us a new one, to take our mind off the government-approved massacre of American citizens. Now Patriot's Day is 9/11.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 10-30-2006, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by AVengeance

If you think the Branch Davidians killed themselves, if you think they lived in a "compound" or "bunker", or if you think those wackos "had it coming" you should check out the documentaries on it.

I have seen docs on it, and I have to wonder why a religious group would feel the need to start stock piling automatic weapons and then shoot at the ATF when they come to arrest them.

AVengeance · 10-30-2006, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

I have seen docs on it, and I have to wonder why

Okay, let's stop there. First and foremost, I don't need a "reason" to own a fast car, or a gun, or a jetski, or a house, or a private company, or a dog. So let's put "why" away right there. Rights are rights, plain and simple.

a religious group would

Ah, yes, those religious people. How dare they do anything as a group.

feel the need to start stock piling

What you call a "stockpile" is also called an inventory. And since Koresh went to gun shows and bought/sold firearms, novelty hand-grenades ("complaint department- pull pin for number"), and other items related to the trade, it stands to reason he would have an inventory. Do you think Wal-Mart is "stockpiling" home electronics?

automatic weapons

I'm going to guess you don't have alot of guns, or have alot of knowledge about them. Can you tell me what models of automatic weapons they had? Can you also shout out, while you're at it, whether or not Koresh had a license to possess, buy, or sell those weapons?
Did you know that Koresh went shooting with ATF agents (not at them, but WITH them) just days before the initial raid, and invited them to inspect his inventory? They declined, of course, as it would be much better PR to have on nation media a religious nut and his evil guns get rounded up. Of course, that didn't go quite as planned.

and then shoot at the ATF when they come to arrest them.

The ATF came to serve a search warrant. The warrant was for the manufacture of illegal weapons, but the agents trained were told it was a drug raid. They also came very heavy handed. Who shot first will probably remain a mystery for all time, since the metal door which would house compelling evidence magically vanished. Honestly, if a bunch of federal agents started shooting at your house, and your wife and kids were inside, what would you do?

I used to think the way you do, when I was right out of high school. I've learned quite a bit since then.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 10-30-2006, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by AVengeance

Okay, let's stop there. First and foremost, I don't need a "reason" to own a fast car, or a gun, or a jetski, or a house, or a private company, or a dog. So let's put "why" away right there. Rights are rights, plain and simple.

Ah, yes, those religious people. How dare they do anything as a group.

What you call a "stockpile" is also called an inventory. And since Koresh went to gun shows and bought/sold firearms, novelty hand-grenades ("complaint department- pull pin for number"), and other items related to the trade, it stands to reason he would have an inventory. Do you think Wal-Mart is "stockpiling" home electronics?

I love how you've just parsed the Koresh story into enough small pieces that you can rationalize it wasn't incredibly suspicious what he was doing. Put aside the smoke screen for a sec, and you'll see a religious nut who was stock piling enough illegal weapons to fight off an army.

Originally Posted by AVengeance

I'm going to guess you don't have alot of guns, or have alot of knowledge about them. Can you tell me what models of automatic weapons they had? Can you also shout out, while you're at it, whether or not Koresh had a license to possess, buy, or sell those weapons?
Did you know that Koresh went shooting with ATF agents (not at them, but WITH them) just days before the initial raid, and invited them to inspect his inventory? They declined, of course, as it would be much better PR to have on nation media a religious nut and his evil guns get rounded up. Of course, that didn't go quite as planned.

I own several guns, but I'm far from a gun expert. I have no idea of what the specific models he had. Ultimately, though, that's irrelevant so long as the ATF had a valid search warrant predicated upon probable cause to think he did have illegal weapons, whatever kind they may have been. I've yet to hear any evidence that the ATF's search warrant was invalid or that Koresh had any sort of license to make it invalid.

Originally Posted by AVengeance

The ATF came to serve a search warrant. The warrant was for the manufacture of illegal weapons, but the agents trained were told it was a drug raid. They also came very heavy handed. Who shot first will probably remain a mystery for all time, since the metal door which would house compelling evidence magically vanished. Honestly, if a bunch of federal agents started shooting at your house, and your wife and kids were inside, what would you do?

I sure as fuck wouldn't get into a fire fight with the Federal government unless I had a death with for myself and my family! You realize that, regardless of how the fight got started, Koresh was in contact with the ATF during the siege and refused to end it peacefully? This was not a simple matter of self defense as you claim. The guy wanted to get into a fight to the death.

AVengeance · 10-30-2006, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

...

Well, we're done sidetracking this thread, but I'll close with saying if you'd care to debate this, I'm all for it, just start a thread. It deserves its own. You should probably get a book and read up on the subject, though. The FBI took over after the initial search warrant attempt failed. The ATF really had little to do with the matter after the initial raid.

motivez · 10-30-2006, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by AVengeance

. . .just start a thread. It deserves its own.. . .

Done for ya guys. New thread

7960 · 10-30-2006, 04:29 PM

<who was to blame>

Koresh.

WickedLou9 · 10-30-2006, 04:35 PM

The branch davidians were to blame. No question. The only thing I can say about the authorities is that they perhaps used too much force. the Waco cult got what they deserved. The Feds had search warrants and the waco people refused to let them in.

Donkey® · 10-30-2006, 04:36 PM

Ha ha...absolutely ridiculous. I shoot. I own guns. I am all for owning guns and civil rights. But I am not training to fight against the government nor am I accused a crime and plan to fight to the death in order to keep them from getting me.

The government tried to serve warrants...Koresh fired upon them. What happened after than could be debated. Should it have ended the way it did? No. Could it have been prevented? Who knows? Should it have been handled differently? Absolutely. Once those first bullets were fired, it broke down into warfare. Anything can happen at that point. Not to mention the fact that Koresh wasn't a stable person to begin with.

WickedLou9 · 10-30-2006, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Ha ha...absolutely ridiculous. I shoot. I own guns. I am all for owning guns and civil rights. But I am not training to fight against the government nor am I accused a crime and plan to fight to the death in order to keep them from getting me.

The government tried to serve warrants...Koresh fired upon them. What happened after than could be debated. Should it have ended the way it did? No. Could it have been prevented? Who knows? Should it have been handled differently? Absolutely. Once those first bullets were fired, it broke down into warfare. Anything can happen at that point. Not to mention the fact that Koresh wasn't a stable person to begin with.

exactly. The waco cult had a large stash of illegal weapons. So they should have all been arrested to begin with. Then they fired at authorities. Attempted murder. As soon as you shoot at a cop, expect to die.

7960 · 10-30-2006, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

The branch davidians were to blame. No question. The only thing I can say about the authorities is that they perhaps used too much force. the Waco cult got what they deserved. The Feds had search warrants and the waco people refused to let them in.

Say a cop pulls me over and says "please step out of the car" and I refuse. I reach into my jacket for *something* and the cop shoots me. Later, at the trial, my next of kin

says "but he didn't have a gun. He was just reaching for his wallet!"

Who is to blame? Me. The WRONG time to when the authorities have a gun in your face.

Donkey® · 10-30-2006, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

Say a cop pulls me over and says "please step out of the car" and I refuse. I reach into my jacket for *something* and the cop shoots me. Later, at the trial, my next of kin says "but he didn't have a gun. He was just reaching for his wallet!"

Who is to blame? Me. The WRONG time to when the authorities have a gun in your face.

Aren't you the same person who argued with a cop because he pulled you over to suggest wearing a helmet?

6SpeedTA95 · 10-30-2006, 04:54 PM

The feds were wayyy out of line...ruby ridge ring a bell for anyone else?

Donkey® · 10-30-2006, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

The feds were wayyy out of line...ruby ridge ring a bell for anyone else?

They had warrants and tried to serve them They got fired upon. Let's not lose sight of the facts please.

7960 · 10-30-2006, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Aren't you the same person who argued with a cop because he pulled you over to suggest wearing a helmet?

got pulled over for riding without a helmet

show me "arguing"

In short, no. You're wrong yet again about yet another topic.

lew · 10-30-2006, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

Say a cop pulls me over and says "please step out of the car" and I refuse. I reach into my jacket for *something* and the cop shoots me. Later, at the trial, my next of kin says "but he didn't have a gun. He was just reaching for his wallet!"

Who is to blame? Me. The WRONG time to when the authorities have a gun in your face.

The cop is to blame.

lew · 10-30-2006, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

The feds were wayyy out of line...ruby ridge ring a bell for anyone else?

The feds were completely out of line.

Waco is just another great example of American Democracy.

7960 · 10-30-2006, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by lew

The cop is to blame.

no.

lew · 10-30-2006, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by 7960

no.

yes.

7960 · 10-30-2006, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by lew

yes.

no.