John Kerry on our lazy, uneducated military

[KatKanPlay]

When Scrum reads this he is going to use those clapping hands of his. I sure wish he would share those....

Awesome Post!!

This whole discussion reminds me of my dad talking about his boss who would trip over a dollar to pick up a dime..

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Republicans weren't spitting on our soldiers when they came home from Vietnam

You're right. That's because no one was spitting on Vietnam vets because that's a total urban legend, but don't let that stop you from repeating it.

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Tradesports.com actually has the Republicans chances at the House and Senate going down today. I guess this attention going to soldiers in Iraq isn't helping them.

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by garbagemanlb

Yep. The Democratic party endorsed spitting on returning Vietnam vets.

Kerry's statements were a critique of the policy in Vietnam, not a slam against the troops themselves. Of course, you conservatives will refute this, as you see critiques of governments as being equal to critisizing troops (see Iraq).

I don't see any prominent Democrats supporting the CNN video, although I wouldn't care, as CNN has every fucking right to show said video due to the 1st amendment.

As for the whole 'Murtha thing', he was bringing the investigation to the public light, and it is debatable as to what intelligence/information he had on the subject beforhand.

I think you are confusing comments 'negative about the military' with critisizing the administration and failed policies. Again, conservatives have difficult times with things like this.

As far as the flag issue is concerned, it is debatable as to whether or not it is unpatriotic to burn the american flag. One side sees it as a slap in the face to veterans, another side sees it as the ultimate expression of free speech. Of course, I bet you disagree with this.

And for the overall response to your post, you and other conservatives really need to make a fucking attempt at trying to realize that it is possible to DEEPLY disagree with this god-damned administration and its military policies without being against the troops.



As for Bush and his stance with the military...I'll let this video speak for itself. Making light of not finding WMDs, and hence those lives given up for the mission, is a million times worse than anything Kerry has ever said.

YouTube - Bush Jokes About Missing WMD in Iraq


If you have the gaul to be critical of Kerry and not Bush after seeing his 'jokes' about WMDs, shame on you.

Great post.

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

You're right. That's because no one was spitting on Vietnam vets because that's a total urban legend, but don't let that stop you from repeating it.

Be careful. If you accuse someone of making someting up you could recieve a warning.

[KatKanPlay]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

You're right. That's because no one was spitting on Vietnam vets because that's a total urban legend, but don't let that stop you from repeating it.

In support of your post:

Debunking A Myth

By John Zutz (Reviewer)

[Printer-Friendly Version]
The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam, by Jerry Lembcke (New York University Press, 1998)
Many Vietnam veterans repeat a common litany: anti-war protesters spit upon them. This book attempts to debunk what Lembcke concludes has become a modern urban myth.
How does one attempt to prove a negative - that something didn't happen? This author does it by examining the positive side and failing to find any conclusive proof that it occurred. Along the way he finds many indications that it is indeed a myth.
His research examined newspapers from New York and San Francisco, as well as police reports detailing the interaction between protesters and veterans. No spitting incidents were reported, and the observers noticed that over time the veterans assumed leadership positions among the protesters. Lembcke did find newspaper reports of spitting during demonstrations in the late 1960s, but they referred to hawks spitting on anti-war protesters.
Reinforcing his myth hypothesis, Lembcke cites a Harris poll reported to Congress in 1972 that indicates 93% of returning veterans found their homecoming friendly, while only 3% found it unfriendly. The poll also reported that over 75% of returning vets were opposed to the war.
The first documented reports of being spit upon don't begin to appear until the early 1980s. According to the author, who is currently an associate professor of sociology, the time delay is a strong indication that the story is a myth. So where did the myth come from?
First, remember that we lost the war. There are historical examples of mistreatment myths in which the abusers are said to be traitors to the national cause. In post-WWI Germany, the Fascists exploited similar rumors to arouse popular anger toward Jews, homosexuals, and women. After France's defeat in Indochina, the contrast and conflict of the male warrior image with the more feminine factors of society were blamed for the defeat.
Second, right after the Vietnam War, the U.S. economy went into the tank. The working-class boys and girls who had served were hit the hardest by the lack of jobs combined with inflation. When they lost their jobs they began to doubt their worth.
Perhaps most important in producing the myth were political machinations. The image of the Vietnam vet in the early 1970s was strongly anti-war. There is no place in the American memory for the factually accurate image of vets throwing their medals back at Congress. This image had to be changed if the United States ever wanted to go to war again.
The image began changing when Nixon lost popular support for the war. He created the notion that society should support the war because the troops were there: we needed to keep fighting to bring the POWs home. The anti-war veteran image was changed further when the Nixon administration alluded that anti-war vets were effeminate and mentally suspect. This attitude was bolstered by popular film images of Post-Vietnam Syndrome (later Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, or PTSD).
The Bush administration used the idea that Vietnam vets had met with malevolence to rally support for the Gulf War, arguing that opposition to the war was tantamount to disregard for the troops' well-being. By the time the bombing began, the troops' presence in the Gulf became the reason for the fighting.
Though no definitive proof can be produced to absolve activists, or to confirm their innocence, one can examine existing records and determine that, with the lack of positive proof and in the face of other events, it is unlikely any spitting occurred.
The author, who served in Vietnam and joined VVAW on his return, comments that on announcing that he was exposing the myth he was met by two reactions, "Myth, hell, it happened," or "It's about time." Personally, I'm glad he did.

Comparing this country's Viet Nam War experience to what is going on today
is like comparing apples to applesauce. The world has moved on....

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

In support of your post:




Comparing this country's Viet Nam War experience to what is going on today
is like comparing apples to applesauce. The world has moved on....

What ??????

[RMNIXON]

So the latest pathetic defense is that Kerry is as troubled in his misstatements as Bush?

[RMNIXON]

"I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command....
They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country."

[KatKanPlay]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

What ??????

What???

Comparisons and references to Viet Nam ahave often been used for point clarifications through out this thread. I am just saying that in so many cases, the comparison is irrelevant because of the cultural and technilogical differences. This I simply added to the whole spitting conversation.

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

What???

Comparisons and references to Viet Nam ahave often been used for point clarifications through out this thread. I am just saying that in so many cases, the comparison is irrelevant because of the cultural and technilogical differences. This I simply added to the whole spitting conversation.

I agree the comparison is irrelevant but its the democrats that started the comparison calling Iraq the modern day vietnam or bush's vietnam or republicans vietnam, so the republicans then pointing out how its much better than vietnam seems ok to me. The original comparison was ridiculous but reps have a right to defend themselves against ridiculous assumptions and comparisons.

[KatKanPlay]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

I agree the comparison is irrelevant but its the democrats that started the comparison calling Iraq the modern day vietnam or bush's vietnam or republicans vietnam, so the republicans then pointing out how its much better than vietnam seems ok to me. The original comparison was ridiculous but reps have a right to defend themselves against ridiculous assumptions and comparisons.

Democrats first made the comparison to Viet Nam only to the extent that we not make the same mistakes in war strategy. Unfortunately no one listened.

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

Democrats first made the comparison to Viet Nam only to the extent that we not make the same mistakes in war strategy. Unfortunately no one listened.

you're kidding right? Have you forgotten about all the analogies in the last election cycle?

[KatKanPlay]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

you're kidding right? Have you forgotten about all the analogies in the last election cycle?

I do, in fact I made several myself. The references however were a guage for the political climate and were made more to clarify tendancies we were seeing in our own country and the way it appeared that our own political winds were blowing. What happened in Germany happened because Hitler convinced the people of Germany that he knew what was best for Germany and had the rightful power to enforce what was best for Germany, Europe and the World.
I have seen no proof that Saddam Hussein had any such notions but it was the very same kind of rhetoric Hitler used in his attempt to conquer Europe that led this country like sheep to slaughter or jews to the gas chamber, into Iraq.

The Viet Nam war era is very different than what we are experiencing with Iraq. The primary reason Viet Nam divided this nation was because of the draft. It was the college students that were the anti-war protestors. Ever heard of Kent State? The primary reason Iraq is dividing this nation is because of information. During Viet Nam there were no vast resources to information like we have today. As I see it the one true thing both wars have in common is the way they were handled, pathetically bad.

[Stylerod]

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

In support of your post:




Comparing this country's Viet Nam War experience to what is going on today
is like comparing apples to applesauce. The world has moved on....

The profanities that I am ready to expel are enormous.

Just who did this person speak to??

I was spit upon, I had people throw beer bottles at me from their cars, and I heard Baby Killer many times, and I graduated Parris Island in 1977...5 years after combat ended in Vietnam!

yeah right, not only was my brother in law spat upon on his return from Nam, when he finally got home "the Baby Killer", had to pay 3 xs what was on the cab meter before the sob would drive A Bronze Star winner home!

He can kiss my Veteran ASS!

I spent the night in a California jail for beating the crap out of a "love child" that spit on me while I was waiting for my duffle bag at the airport luggage carosel.

I ignored the chants, but the spit earned him some extensive dental work and my right boot rearranged his rib cage. I still have the scars on my knuckles from his dislodged teeth..

I distinctly remember marching in a 4th of July parade when I was in the Boy Scouts in 19-73 or 1974 and we were the color guard for the local VFW. The Vets marched according to their service with the Viet Nam vets in the rear and they were jeered and booed and had things thrown at them. Most of the time whoever threw something was confronted by someone else in the crowd and the parade was only a couple of blocks long but it DID happen. I remember at first I was bewildered and then extremely angry. My dad was marching with the Korean Vets and he got a good dose of the hate too and he was fuming.

My brother committed suicide after his return from Nam. Our family believes one reason was the "welcome" he received when he got home. And I saw people flip him off, turn their backs on him, etc. He told me about spitting and I saw the evidence of bar fights resulting from the name calling.

jun 70 lax airport ..... all the wonderful california liberals.... vvaw.. spat, through eggs, urine in a bag, fecies, called us everything they could think of.... I wore my uniform home through Atlanta, to Fayetteville, NC. I had it cleaned and it hangs in my closet to this say

In 1968 there was a Marine standing in his dress greens at the corner of Katella and St. College in Anaheim, CA. Anyone who has ever been to Disneyland knows the corner.

That evening this Marine was on a weekend liberty on his way to Viet Nam. As he was standing at the corner waiting with others for the traffic signal to change so he could cross the street to go to Disneyland there was an automobile with several people inside. As the car was making a right turn in front of the Marine and other pedestrians, a person in the back seat of the car leaned out and spat at the Marine but because of the Marine's excellent reflexes, he missed the spittle.

I know this story is accurate because I was that Marine.

Sept 1969 San Francisco Int'l Airport

The rioters through crap at us and spit at us...while sitting in the airport waiting for a military standby to Chicago to open up...a pretty hippy chick came up to me and a Marine I was traveling with..stood in front of us and asked us if we had fought in Vietnam..when we both said yes she started calling us 'baby killers' spit at both of us .from about a foot away...missed me and hit him in the face...he hauled back to belt her one..I was able to keep him from killing her..even though I wanted to kill her myself..then she began screaming obscenities at us which got plenty of attention...

The cops weren't far away and it didn't take long for a bunch of them to head over in our direction and I did not want to go to jail...I just wanted to get home to my small town away from all these a holes...

The cops were very good to us...we told them what happened and just hauled her sorry butt off...she was kicking and screaming obscenities at all of us by that time..

A little while longer and we both able to catch a military standby on the same flight..
It was pretty neat because the airlines threw a couple of college hippies off the flight and gave us their seats....in first class

The hippies were pretty upset and starting bitching about us but the passengers in first class
(business class) booed them and applauded us...it was pretty neat...quite a few of them offered to buy us drinks..which we took them up on I am pretty sure...

True story...I don't care what this a hole says about it being an 'urban myth' the only urban myth here is the one he just created.. about these events...he is just another propagandizing left wing apologist liar

November 4, 1969 was my first time, in the lobby of the Fairmont Hotel. Having just returned from Vietnam, I was wearing dress blues attending a formal dinner with my new wife, my parents, and family friends. After spitting, the individual made few profane remarks about me and my medals before he was abruptly removed by two WWII vets.

My right fist has scars across the knuckles where I put an "F'n" spitter in the hospital in 1974 between Keesler AFB and the NCBC in Gulfport.

Forgot to mention that after getting into Oakland we were advised to change into civvies if we had any...that the Army was ok with us traveling in civvies...this was because veterans had been attacked we were told by anti war protesters...

This is no urban legend this is a fact...even the Army had a policy allowing returning vets to travel legally on orders in civvies..

I would say that if the DOD considered it dangerous for returning Vietnam Vets it was because there were documented cases of such attacks

Here is the email I sent to the good Dr.

Dear Dr. Llewellyn:

Not to put a pin in your balloon sir, but either I was high on drugs I never used or insane at the time, but I for one was spit on when returning from Viet Nam. The incident happened at the San Francisco International Air Port.

I, a returning First Lieutenant in the U.S. Army, was with an Air Force Major. We were confronted by two young men and one young lady, who were blocking out path, asking us questions such as how many babies had we killed and how many women we had raped, when the young lady stepped close to me and spit in my face.

I was, initially stunned and taken aback. I had no idea how to respond. I guess my anger was welling up within me as the young folks took off as the Air Force Major grabbed me and said something to the affect "that it wasn't worth it".

It certainly is a shame that you have taken the position as an authority on the subject and written that such activities didn't happen and are nothing more than Urban Legend.. They did and to more than just a few individuals.

This was in the spring of 1972

There are probably a hundred more accounts of spitting happening.

The 60's/70's are the romantic era for liberals. Great music, free sex, lots of drugs, and a successful anti-war campaign. The "Golden Age" so-to-speak. They did some bad things, and some are trying to say it never happened. It did happen. I work with 3 Vietnam vets. 2 said they were spit at (neither got hit) and all three said they were verbally assaulted more than once. These people were treated badly by the left when they returned home (thanks to the likes of John Kerry and Jane Fonda). A lot were drafted but that didn't seem to make a difference. When you are anti-war, liberals seem to think you have free reign to say or do anything.

[7960]

Originally Posted by garbagemanlb

YouTube - Bush Jokes About Missing WMD in Iraq

If you have the gaul to be critical of Kerry and not Bush after seeing his 'jokes' about WMDs, shame on you.

I was critical of bush for that joke. It was in extremely poor taste and he shouldn't have said it. But when he was told that he apologized, unlike kerry.

[KatKanPlay]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

There are probably a hundred more accounts of spitting happening.

The 60's/70's are the romantic era for liberals. Great music, free sex, lots of drugs, and a successful anti-war campaign. The "Golden Age" so-to-speak. They did some bad things, and some are trying to say it never happened. It did happen. I work with 3 Vietnam vets. 2 said they were spit at (neither got hit) and all three said they were verbally assaulted more than once. These people were treated badly by the left when they returned home (thanks to the likes of John Kerry and Jane Fonda). A lot were drafted but that didn't seem to make a difference. When you are anti-war, liberals seem to think you have free reign to say or do anything.

You have a very slanted view of that whole time frame. The average American at that time was basically, what would be called today, moderate and traditional. The anit-war protestors were neither liberal or conservative, they were college students. They had no other political agenda but to end a war that was killing and maiming too many of their own by way of the draft. They were also protesting the draft. Were there some radicals? ,,, you bet. Was it half the country? ,,, not even close.

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by 7960

I was critical of bush for that joke. It was in extremely poor taste and he shouldn't have said it. But when he was told that he apologized, unlike kerry.

Kerry apologized.

[7960]

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

Kerry apologized.

kerry said four times that he wouldn't apologize, then he finally apologized (gee, a kerry flip-flop...who'd have guessed?) but it was for botching a joke, not for insulting the military.

someone already said this but I'll say it my way...if I said "and then he put the jew in the oven!!" and people pointed out that was offensive, my first reply (especially if I didn't mean to say that) would be

"I'm very sorry to the people I offended. What I meant to say was......."

NOT

"I won't apologize",
"I said nothing to be sorry for",
"Everyone knows I didn't mean jew; everyone should have known I meant jewelry",
"The GOP is trying to use this botched joke to smear me",
"Of course I'm sorry I botched the joke".

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by 7960

kerry said four times that he wouldn't apologize, then he finally apologized (gee, a kerry flip-flop...who'd have guessed?) but it was for botching a joke, not for insulting the military.

someone already said this but I'll say it my way...if I said "and then he put the jew in the oven!!" and people pointed out that was offensive, my first reply (especially if I didn't mean to say that) would be

"I'm very sorry to the people I offended. What I meant to say was......."

NOT

"I won't apologize",
"I said nothing to be sorry for",
"Everyone knows I didn't mean jew; everyone should have known I meant jewelry",
"The GOP is trying to use this botched joke to smear me",
"Of course I'm sorry I botched the joke".

Talk about a mountain out of a molehill.

He apologized. And not in the half ass way that's being described here.

"I personally apologize to any service member, family member, or American who was offended"