The education system needs RESPONSIBILITY not more money...

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by 7960

If they really want to teach why don't they move?

Cause their family is here. She hasn't applied more than 20 miles away for an elementary ed job though. I keep telling her to apply further. But in NJ there's easily 100 schools within that 20 mile radius. She hasn't applied to them all, but by God I think she will be before she gets a job...

[7960]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Cause their family is here. She hasn't applied more than 20 miles away for an elementary ed job though....

If she's not willing to move, and isn't doing anything to improve her resume, what makes her think she's going to get a job?

I'll never get this....... new graduates don't get to cherry-pick their jobs. They have to go to where the jobs are to get experience so they can have more options and a better resume when jobs open in better schools. If she's not willing to move out of that radius and it's been 2 years already, my guess is she'll never teach.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by 7960

If she's not willing to move, and isn't doing anything to improve her resume, what makes her think she's going to get a job?

I'll never get this....... new graduates don't get to cherry-pick their jobs. They have to go to where the jobs are to get experience so they can have more options and a better resume when jobs open in better schools. If she's not willing to move out of that radius and it's been 2 years already, my guess is she'll never teach.

They have a lease on their apartment. Her fiance has a job locally. Both of them have family in central/northern NJ and he has a very good job.

[IminWonderland]

I'm moving to AZ to teach this next Fall. I believe I still have to do 30 Semester Hours to get credentialed in AZ, but I refuse to teach in CA. The credentialing program is seriously 2 or 3 years, and I don't need a class on "Attendance Taking 100".

I don't think this system needs more funds, I think that there needs to be better oversight, maybe parental for the money that is spent in the schools.

As a parent myself, I'm not leaving it up to the schools for education. I consider that education basic, and I plan on giving him supplementation at home. Like I told my Sister when her son came home from Kindergarten with homework, sit down with him, and help him work through all of it. Don't throw it at him and expect him to just "get" it. They need guidance from everyone if they are going to learn.

[7960]

Originally Posted by JaJae

They have a lease on their apartment. Her fiance has a job locally. Both of them have family in central/northern NJ and he has a very good job.

My wife's undergrad is in elementary ed...she never taught because she didn't get a job within 4 years of graduating. I hate to say this, but if she doesn't get a job soon she never will...is she doing anything to keep her certification current? If her teaching license expires it's going to be a pain (not impossible, just a pain) to get it back, and it's going to make shopping for a job that much more difficult.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by 7960

My wife's undergrad is in elementary ed...she never taught because she didn't get a job within 4 years of graduating. I hate to say this, but if she doesn't get a job soon she never will...is she doing anything to keep her certification current? If her teaching license expires it's going to be a pain (not impossible, just a pain) to get it back, and it's going to make shopping for a job that much more difficult.

She's been subbing every day. She goes to different districts trying to get to know everyone in the local schools. NJ has a neat system where you can go online, see class cancellations and apply for them and get instant feedback on when and where you next job will be. Basically every night she goes online, looks at sub openings and picks one. It pays her share of the rent. But she has a masters degree in English and is certified to teach. She's paying off her school loans now as well. She needs a job with benefits since they're still not married.

[AVengeance]

Originally Posted by 7960

It's very easy to make a rule saying "parents to help their child with 1hr of homework every night" but it's another to actually do something about it.

While I agree with your concept, I disagree that it could ever work. See, public schools have one weakness that private schools don't... they have to take every kid.

Bingo!

They can't decide to kick a kid out because his dad isn't helping him with math. They can't tell Johnny to go home because his mom didn't read to him. And since we're all better off if everyone is educated, kicking kids out because their parents are pieces of shit isn't going to help anything.

You point out one of the fundamental flaws with government education, and why the government needs to step back from trying to BE the business of education, and simply regulate it as they do other industries. The government, if they want to help the poor, should give education vouchers to parents for their children to attend the school of their choice. This creates competition in the marketplace, and also creates punishment for the parent if they aren't helping (the kid can be kicked out of school, and the parent can get in trouble with DFS if the kid isn't getting educated). Simply keeping loser kids in school doesn't make the loser kid a more effective member of society, it DRAGS DOWN EVERYONE ELSE.

[7960]

Originally Posted by JaJae

She's been subbing every day. She goes to different districts trying to get to know everyone in the local schools. NJ has a neat system where you can go online, see class cancellations and apply for them and get instant feedback on when and where you next job will be. Basically every night she goes online, looks at sub openings and picks one. It pays her share of the rent. But she has a masters degree in English and is certified to teach. She's paying off her school loans now as well. She needs a job with benefits since they're still not married.

Tell her she needs to MAKE SURE that all this subbing is documented (you'd think it would be, but then again.....) and she needs to MAKE SURE she knows the requirements for recertification. I quit teaching a year after getting recertified. My license lasted 4 years. I got the form for my recert and over the next 3 years kept track of everything I needed. I fulfilled my recert requirement without having taught for 3 years. The next time around I let it lapse becuase I knew I wasn't going back, but she really should be gearing up for her recert...keeping track of teaching hours, classes she's taking (if any), professional organizations, etc...make sure all the boxes are checked off so recert is just a rubber stamp rather than an "ooh, you only did 14 of the required 16 hours in *this* subject area, your license is revoked."

[7960]

Originally Posted by AVengeance

Bingo!


You point out one of the fundamental flaws with government education, and why the government needs to step back from trying to BE the business of education, and simply regulate it as they do other industries. The government, if they want to help the poor, should give education vouchers to parents for their children to attend the school of their choice. This creates competition in the marketplace, and also creates punishment for the parent if they aren't helping (the kid can be kicked out of school, and the parent can get in trouble with DFS if the kid isn't getting educated). Simply keeping loser kids in school doesn't make the loser kid a more effective member of society, it DRAGS DOWN EVERYONE ELSE.

This argument is circular... the reason you *can't* run a school like a business is BECAUSE they have to take every kid. That's why schools *should* remain part of local govt and not made private with vouchers.

[AVengeance]

Originally Posted by 7960

This argument is circular... the reason you *can't* run a school like a business is BECAUSE they have to take every kid. That's why schools *should* remain part of local govt and not made private with vouchers.

I'm not sure what you mean by have to take every kid. Why is that? Does Wal-Mart have to let everyone in? No. Do they? Yes, as long as they're there to do business. When someone goes into Wal-Mart and starts smashing the Mayo jars on the floor, they get removed. There isn't a congressional hearing on how the mayo jars need to be designed more safely. If the problem is a person, you remove the person. We're harming the education of the majority that want to learn by dumbing down the whole institution for the minority that don't want to learn.
No school should have to take a kid that is a disruption to the process of learning for everyone else.

It's like saying "we have to let every apple go in a barrel, or some apples will get left behind No apples left behind!" Of course, if you throw in the bad apples, what happens to the other apples in the barrel? Yep, they all go bad faster. They all don't taste as good. This moronic idea that you have to PRETEND to educate EVERYONE instead of actually educating the majority and letting the minority be ditch-diggers has got to go.

[7960]

Originally Posted by AVengeance

I'm not sure what you mean by have to take every kid. Why is that? Does Wal-Mart have to let everyone in? No. Do they? Yes, as long as they're there to do business.

This argument sounds great until you really start thinking about the implications...mostly, now we have a child who has demonstrated anti-social behavior *and* you're going to make sure he grows up uneducated.

If the problem is a person, you remove the person.

Nice in concept but education is a right. Telling Mr. and Mrs. Smith "sorry, your matthew bites so we're removing him from public education" isn't realistic.

We're harming the education of the majority that want to learn by dumbing down the whole institution for the minority that don't want to learn.

Fantastic!! If you can remove all the kids *I* didn't think wanted to be there I'd go back to teaching in a heartbeat!!

No school should have to take a kid that is a disruption to the process of learning for everyone else.

And what do you propose we do with the thousands / tens of thousands of 10-14 years old kids who would get kicked out but aren't old enough to work?

It's like saying "we have to let every apple go in a barrel, or some apples will get left behind No apples left behind!" Of course, if you throw in the bad apples, what happens to the other apples in the barrel? Yep, they all go bad faster. They all don't taste as good. This moronic idea that you have to PRETEND to educate EVERYONE instead of actually educating the majority and letting the minority be ditch-diggers has got to go.

blah blah blah... spoken like a person who (a) doesn't have kids (or at least doesn't have kids old enough to be in school), and (b) has never worked in a school.

And BTW, I didn't "pretend" to educate everyone. I passed the kids who performed above the required score on my material and I failed the kids who didn't. No pretending...those are the facts. And during that time the kids who didn't want to be there did *not* detract from the kids who did. You might keep saying that they did becuase it helps your argument, but then I'll come back with "Were you in my room when I taught? I didn't think so. So how do you know what happened better than me?"

[AVengeance]

Originally Posted by 7960

This argument sounds great until you really start thinking about the implications...mostly, now we have a child who has demonstrated anti-social behavior *and* you're going to make sure he grows up uneducated.

First, he'd grow up uneducated anyway, this is already established. If a child refuses to learn, and the parent can't/won't make it possible for him to function properly in a school setting, how is it he's learning? By osmosis? No, instead he creates reasons for a police presence in the schools. He becomes part of why there are bars on the windows, and all the "dangerous" playground equipment is removed, and why the standardized tests get dumbed down more and more.
The school system doesn't teach him, he pollutes it.

Nice in concept but education is a right. Telling Mr. and Mrs. Smith "sorry, your matthew bites so we're removing him from public education" isn't realistic.

Can you quote where the Constitution says we have a right to a government-run education? I can't seem to find it. I'm sure we have a right to breathe and eat, too, but we don't need to go to the government oxygen bars and government feeding troughs, do we?

Fantastic!! If you can remove all the kids *I* didn't think wanted to be there I'd go back to teaching in a heartbeat!!

Thanks for proving my point. You take the bad kids out, and the good teachers would come back. Forcing the losers from grade to grade is part of why my mother doesn't teach in the government schools anymore.

And what do you propose we do with the thousands / tens of thousands of 10-14 years old kids who would get kicked out but aren't old enough to work?

What do you do if some kid gets kicked out of the local grocery store? The parent needs to be responsible for the child's education, whether that means in a school, a church, at home, or on the top of a mountain.

blah blah blah... spoken like a person who (a) doesn't have kids (or at least doesn't have kids old enough to be in school), and (b) has never worked in a school.

My mother is a college graduate, with a BS in education. I have tutored at the high school level in computer classes. I have also attended the schools my children go to numerous times on field trips and in-class events. I have kids ranging from teen to elementary. I am very active in the educational process of my children (much to your dismay, I'm sure).

...I passed the kids who performed above the required score on my material and I failed the kids who didn't. No pretending...those are the facts. And during that time the kids who didn't want to be there did *not* detract from the kids who did. You might keep saying that they did becuase it helps your argument, but then I'll come back with "Were you in my room when I taught? I didn't think so. So how do you know what happened better than me?"

You must have been a good teacher, and I'm sure your old school is worse off without you, if you could keep the irritating minority isolated from the majority that were there to learn.

There are so many problems created with the current government education system that would be so simply evaporated with its abolision.


Bodily exercise, when compulsory, does no harm to the body; but knowledge which is acquired under compulsion obtains no hold on the mind.
– Plato

It is better to tolerate the rare instance of a parent refusing to let his child be educated, than to shock the common feelings and ideas by forcible asportation and education of the infant against the will of the father.
– Thomas Jefferson

To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
– Thomas Jefferson

Men had better be without education than be educated by their rulers.
– Thomas Hodgskin, 1823

A general State education is a mere contrivance for moulding people to be exactly like one another; and as the mould in which it casts them is that which pleases the dominant power in the government, whether this be a monarch, an aristocracy, or a majority of the existing generation (aka democracy); in proportion as it is efficient and successful, it establishes a despotism over the mind, leading by a natural tendency to one over the body.
– John Stuart Mill

Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery.
– Benjamin Disraeli, British Prime Minister (1874)

Our schools have been scientifically designed to prevent over-education from happening. The average American [should be] content with their humble role in life, because they're not tempted to think about any other role.
– William T. Harris, U.S. Commissioner of Education, 1889

I suppose it is because nearly all children go to school nowadays and have things arranged for them that they seem so forlornly unable to produce their own ideas.
– Agatha Christie

and finally...

In keeping Americans ill-educated, ill-informed and constitutionally ignorant, the education establishment has been the politician's major and most faithful partner. It is in this sense that American education can be deemed a success.
– Walter Williams, Professor of Economics, George Mason University (2005)

[7960]

Originally Posted by AVengeance

First, he'd grow up uneducated anyway, this is already established.

Well, let's stop right there becuase you're wrong. I had plenty of kids who were little pieces of shit as freshmen and ended up being pretty good kids by their senior year. I even know more than a few who were total dregs at the beginning of the year and were all right by the end of the year and went on to have a good high school experience.

By osmosis? No, instead he creates reasons for a police presence in the schools. He becomes part of why there are bars on the windows, and all the "dangerous" playground equipment is removed, and why the standardized tests get dumbed down more and more.

The police and bars are there as much for the straight A student and captain of the football team as it is for the kid who cuts himself. If you think the "bad" kids are the only ones who break windows and do drugs and steal money, etc then you're completely wrong.

Can you quote where the Constitution says we have a right to a government-run education? I can't seem to find it. I'm sure we have a right to breathe and eat, too, but we don't need to go to the government oxygen bars and government feeding troughs, do we?

Can you quote the constitution where it says we have the right to get married because i can't seem to find that, either .

Thanks for proving my point. You take the bad kids out, and the good teachers would come back.

I never said I was a good teacher

Forcing the losers from grade to grade is part of why my mother doesn't teach in the government schools anymore.

I also never passed anyone who didn't earn it.

[KatKanPlay]

If education is not a requirement and duty of citizenship, then I think some sincere thought needs to be put into this issue. At birth we are born American citizens, and from that moment on, it is a parents responsiblity to begin to train that child for its life ahead. Education starts immediately. When a child starts school, parental responsibility for education may lessen, but their responsibility to teach social behaviour becomes greater.

Teachers need more voluntary/mandantory, if necessary, parental interaction so that they have more time to educate and less time dealing with behavior issues that parents have to be forced to deal with eventually anyway. The younger you start, the easier it is later. When children know that Mom and Dad are right on top of it from the beginning, you will find less interaction with Mom and Dad are necessary.

I believe school should be nationally funded, guaranteed, and consistent across the board. A strong educated citizenry will make for a strong economically sound Nation.

[AVengeance]

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

Teachers need more voluntary/mandantory, if necessary, parental interaction so that they have more time to educate and less time dealing with behavior issues that parents have to be forced to deal with eventually anyway.

I agree. The parents should be the final authority in punishing the child. We now have police roaming the hallways, ready to tazer unruley students, when it should be the parents dealing with it. If the parent won't deal with the issue, cite the parent, or kick the kid out of school.

The younger you start, the easier it is later. When children know that Mom and Dad are right on top of it from the beginning, you will find less interaction with Mom and Dad are necessary.

Tru, dat!

I believe school should be nationally funded, guaranteed, and consistent across the board. A strong educated citizenry will make for a strong economically sound Nation.

I totally agree. All of that can be done with government OVERSIGHT rather than government trying to run the schools directly. Even though the education system is become more nationized than ever, it continues to go down the tubes. We must recognize that funneling more taxpayer dollars into this failed business venture of child socialization will not create educated children. In fact, government education HOLDS BACK bright kids, while shoving along the ones that should be ditch diggers. We have to stop thinking that all people are equal in ability, and recognize that some people are strong, some are weak, some are intelligent, and others are idiots. Some learn by reading, others learn by doing. The government education system is like going into the clothing store, and all they have is "government" clothes, and everything is one-size-fits-all. As a left-handed child in a right-handed school system, I experienced this first-hand. No pun intended.

[tbone]

To sum up my thoughts, those who think schools are adequately funded are idiots.

Quality teachers are vitally important to a good education and a good education is vitally important to the success of this country. Teachers are woefully underpaid, overworked, and provided with little support.

The average starting salary for teachers with no experience in public charter schools that used a salary schedule was $26,977, compared with $25,888 for public school districts. Private schools offered the lowest base salary, with teachers with a bachelor's degree and no experience earning $20,302 annually.

Schools and Staffing Survey, 1999-2000: Overview of the Data for Public, Private, Public Charter, and Bureau of Indian Affairs Elementary and Secondary Schools , NCES Fall 2002 Quarterly

Let me know if you would work 10 hour days 5 days a week for 10 months and put up with some awful children, awful parents, and inept administators if you had a master's degree and continuing education requirements for the salary above? You could easily make twice that doing much less actual work with less stress.


Whoever suggested privatizing schools, is also dead wrong, as private schools salaries are worse than public or public/chartered.


There is currently a teacher shortage in many areas including mine:

A historic turnover is taking place in the teaching profession. While student enrollments are rising rapidly, more than a million veteran teachers are nearing retirement. Experts predict that overall we will need more than 2 million new teachers in the next decade.

This teacher recruitment problem, which has reached crisis proportions in some areas, is most acute in urban and rural schools; for high-need subject areas such as special education, math and science, and for teachers of color.

Teacher compensation is a significant deterrent to recruitment. Teachers are still paid less than professions that require comparable education and skills. Teachers still are not valued and respected to the extent of their actual contributions to society.

NEA: Teacher Shortage

New teachers are leaving the profession at astonishing rates and we are facing a serious shortfall of qualified teachers nationwide.

The statistics for turnover among new teachers are startling. Some 20 percent of all new hires leave the classroom within three years. In urban districts, the numbers are worse—close to 50 percent of newcomers flee the profession during their first five years of teaching.

NEA: Teacher Shortage

So in essence, those of you advocating no more funding for schools are dooming our own workforce to mediocrity and our nation to fail. As without compensating teachers MUCH higher than we currently do, our education system WILL continue to fail.

We will not attract new teachers into the profession who will stay until the salaries increase tremendously. Granted there are a LOT of other problems that need to be addressed, but they are all secondary to having good qualified teachers. Policies can be fixed, principles fired, unions abolished, etc, but without teachers in the profession, none of that will matter.

Get your priorities straight!

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

I believe school should be nationally funded, guaranteed, and consistent across the board. A strong educated citizenry will make for a strong economically sound Nation.

At least one quote I agree with in this thread, this would at least guarantee the same resources to work with.