Being Poor is NOT a Crime

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

It's like the gun laws...gun laws don't influence anybody but law abiding citizens who aren't going to kill anyone anyway. If a criminal wants to harm someone, they will do so, no matter the laws in places, the taxes they have to pay, etc.

Horrible analogy. That logic works with guns because criminals can easily get access to guns and use them without the police knowing (or at least not knowing till after the damage is done). You cannot open up shop and start selling (giving) unregulated, possibly poisoned food for long without getting shut down, and so the damage can be largely prevented before it's done. Regulations only work when they can be enforced. Gun regs are almost impossible to enforce. Food selling/giving regs are very possible to enforce because the activity is so conspicuous.

[DosEquis]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

It's like the gun laws...gun laws don't influence anybody but law abiding citizens who aren't going to kill anyone anyway. If a criminal wants to harm someone, they will do so, no matter the laws in places, the taxes they have to pay, etc.

The only people abiding rape laws are those who are not raping people anyway. If they want to rape someone they will do so, no matter the laws in places, the taxes they have to pay, etc. Why have any laws at all?

[hsmith]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

Horrible analogy. That logic works with guns because criminals can easily get access to guns and use them without the police knowing (or at least not knowing till after the damage is done). You cannot open up shop and start selling (giving) unregulated, possibly poisoned food for long without getting shut down, and so the damage can be largely prevented before it's done. Regulations only work when they can be enforced. Gun regs are almost impossible to enforce. Food selling/giving regs are very possible to enforce because the activity is so conspicuous.

What is to stop a shop from poisioning people after paying the tax and being inspected?

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by hsmith

What is to stop a shop from poisioning people after paying the tax and being inspected?

Nothing, if they just poison someone just once, but after poisoning a few people, it's likely the regulators will get wind of it and shut them down.

[Kytro]

Originally Posted by Stylerod

I know you will probably never be back, but can you prove some of the things you have said here?

Las Vegas SUN: Las Vegas appealing judge's ruling on feeding homeless at parks

Seems there was a bit of truth in it...

[hsmith]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

Nothing, if they just poison someone just once, but after poisoning a few people, it's likely the regulators will get wind of it and shut them down.

So refuse to feed thousands of starving people because someone *COULD* poision a few people?

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by hsmith

So refuse to feed thousands of starving people because someone *COULD* poision a few people?

No, not refuse to feed thousands...just get a permit before you do it to lessen the chances of poisoning.

Anyway, I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing because someone else brought up this whole permit/poison thing. I could care less if people want to feed the homeless in the park or not. My only objection is that criminalizing feeding them is just putting a bandaid over the root problem of unfunded mental/drug treatment. People might as well pay for that treatment instead of paying for prisons, crime, drugs, etc, since you're going to pay either way. These homeless people aren't going to disappear, which seems to be the aim of the law in question.

[7960]

Originally Posted by hsmith

so what is the point of paying the tax if you want to help people?

if you are going to poision someone, it doesn't quite matter, now does it.

it prevents those that WOULD help people from doing so. it doesn't prevent those who would do harm from doing so.

this is ignorant.....

-why license restaurants?
-why license doctors?
-why license teachers?
-why license drivers?
-why license financial planners?
-why license pilots?
.
.
.
you want to know why? because at some point someone fucked up HUGE and people realized "hey, maybe those people wouldn't have died if we required those doctors/pilots/drivers/etc to prove they knew how to do it."

[hsmith]

Originally Posted by 7960

this is ignorant.....

-why license restaurants?
-why license doctors?
-why license teachers?
-why license drivers?
-why license financial planners?
-why license pilots?
.
.
.
you want to know why? because at some point someone fucked up HUGE and people realized "hey, maybe those people wouldn't have died if we required those doctors/pilots/drivers/etc to prove they knew how to do it."

or maybe some of us think we need less government, one that doesn't need to TAX everything.

and no, none of those need to be licensed. pilots, sure i will say ok. licensing only prohbits entry into the market. gee, i wonder why health care is out of control, couldn't be that the barriers to entry into the field are astronimcal

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by hsmith

gee, i wonder why health care is out of control, couldn't be that the barriers to entry into the field are astronimcal

I agree that the barriers to entry into the medical field are too high, but it doesn't follow that therefore barriers shouldn't exist at all. Are you seriously arguing that anyone should be able to open up a medical practice and start slicing?

[hsmith]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

I agree that the barriers to entry into the medical field are too high, but it doesn't follow that therefore barriers shouldn't exist at all. Are you seriously arguing that anyone should be able to open up a medical practice and start slicing?

If you want to sure.

BUT then again, doing so and claiming you were a doctor would be fraud. it is ridiculous the AMA is the only association to ceritfy doctors. the impetus would be on the patient to research before hand to ensure the doctor was who s/he claimed to be. i for one research all my doctors prior to going ot them.

there is no need to go to medical school then to residency for a dozen years. most could learn through apprenticeships with doctors (family dr's, ect). if it is something they can't handle, refer to someone who can.

would i go to a brain surgon that has no advanced training? no. would i go to a family dr that doesn't for a cold? yes.

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by hsmith

If you want to sure.

BUT then again, doing so and claiming you were a doctor would be fraud. it is ridiculous the AMA is the only association to ceritfy doctors. the impetus would be on the patient to research before hand to ensure the doctor was who s/he claimed to be. i for one research all my doctors prior to going ot them.

there is no need to go to medical school then to residency for a dozen years. most could learn through apprenticeships with doctors (family dr's, ect). if it is something they can't handle, refer to someone who can.

would i go to a brain surgon that has no advanced training? no. would i go to a family dr that doesn't for a cold? yes.

Who are the people who tend to use doctors the most? Elderly people. And who are the people who are most notorious for being easy marks for con men? The elderly. Imagine the effect of that if anyone could open up shop and practice medicine without a license. Not everyone is capable of conducting extensive research of the type you envision. Are you going to argue it's their fault when they get maimed and killed? Is there no one that society recognizes must be protected?

That said, I do think the barriers to entry are way too high for general practitioners, but why not just be reasonable and make a compromise? Why do you have to be unrealistic and extreme? This is why libertarianism will never catch on.

[7960]

Originally Posted by hsmith

and no, none of those need to be licensed. pilots, sure i will say ok. licensing only prohbits entry into the market. gee, i wonder why health care is out of control, couldn't be that the barriers to entry into the field are astronimcal

assinine........ no need to license doctors, but you want pilots to be licensed? So a doc shitty doc with inadequate training can kill one at a time for years and years but a shitty pilot is going to kill some number of people once because he's going down with them...your thought process makes absolutely no sense.

and btw, it *SHOULD* be hard to become a doctor. If an accountant fucks up taxes there's a fine. If a doctor fucks up surgery people die.

[7960]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

Why do you have to be unrealistic and extreme? This is why libertarianism will never catch on.

I'm so sick of libertarians and their "let the free market take care of it" bullshit. I could make an argument that financial planners don't necessarily need to be licensed, but doctors should be licensed and I can't wrap my head around how someone could think otherwise.

[SICKGUY]

it sounds cruel, but if you have ever been to denver and see the number of beggers on every corner. handing them anything just feels like youre adding to a growing problem. most of these people can work, shit, if you can stand on a corner in 95 degrees while sucking in car fumes for 8 hours, you can work a damn job.

[KatKanPlay]

Originally Posted by SICKGUY

it sounds cruel, but if you have ever been to denver and see the number of beggers on every corner. handing them anything just feels like youre adding to a growing problem. most of these people can work, shit, if you can stand on a corner in 95 degrees while sucking in car fumes for 8 hours, you can work a damn job.

I have often thought that is a tough way to make a living. I dont contribute.

[hsmith]

Originally Posted by 7960

I'm so sick of libertarians and their "let the free market take care of it" bullshit. I could make an argument that financial planners don't necessarily need to be licensed, but doctors should be licensed and I can't wrap my head around how someone could think otherwise.

yeah it is just some odd coincidence that the most regulated industry in the country has the highest prices

nothing to do with government regulation at all.

[KatKanPlay]

Originally Posted by hsmith

yeah it is just some odd coincidence that the most regulated industry in the country has the highest prices

nothing to do with government regulation at all.

Sometimes the price is worth the cost of regulation.

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by hsmith

yeah it is just some odd coincidence that the most regulated industry in the country has the highest prices

nothing to do with government regulation at all.

How does that justify completely doing away with any and all regulation?

[hsmith]

Originally Posted by KatKanPlay

Sometimes the price is worth the cost of regulation.

yeah. i bet the poor people that can't afford health care really feel that way!