Let's discuss this California wildfire

Scrum · 11-02-2006, 04:50 PM

Murder charges*filed in deaths of California firefighters - CNN.com

RIVERSIDE, California (AP) -- Authorities on Thursday filed murder and arson charges carrying the death penalty against a man suspected of setting a Southern California wildfire last week that killed five firefighters.

The suspect, Raymond Lee Oyler, 36, was in police custody after he was arrested in connection with two June fires in the Banning Pass area, a windy corridor that carries Interstate 10 between mountain ranges west of Palm Springs.

October's blaze was the deadliest for firefighters since 14 were killed in July 1994 near Glenwood Springs, Colorado, according to the National Interagency Fire Center statistics.

Oyler, of Beaumont, California, will also face two so-called special circumstances, one alleging murders committed during arson and another alleging multiple murders, District Attorney-elect Rod Pacheco Pacheco said.

The charges are punishable by life in prison without parole or the death penalty, Pacheco said.

The fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds as it swept southwest through the San Jacinto Mountains. The flames overran the fire crew, destroyed 34 homes and charred more than 60 square miles before being contained Monday.

Three firefighters died at the scene, and a fourth died soon after at a hospital. A fifth was taken off life support and died this week.

Investigators interviewed Oyler on October 27, served a search warrant on his residence Monday, then arrested him Tuesday.

In Joplin, Missouri, police and court records show Oyler had mostly minor run-ins with the law from 1997 through 1999. The most severe was a 1999 misdemeanor charge of violating a protection order by entering his wife's apartment while she was out. The couple divorced in 2001.

News 8 :: KFMB Stations, San Diego, California

POPPET FLAT, Calif. -- (AP) - Authorities in Riverside say arson, murder and other charges carrying a possible death sentence will be filed against a 36-year-old man in a wildfire that killed five U.S. Forest Service firefighters last week, and earlier fires.

Sheriff's investigators are recommending five counts of first-degree murder, eleven counts of arson and ten counts of use of an incendiary device against Raymond Lee Oyler of Beaumont.

District Attorney-elect Rod Pacheco told a news conference this morning that prosecutors will file the charges later in the day.

Pacheco says Oyler will additionally face two so-called special circumstances, one alleging murders committed during arson and another alleging multiple murders.

The five firefighters were killed by the Esperanza fire, which spread over more than 60 square miles before being contained Monday.

I never really thought about it before, but I didn't realize they could charge someone with 1st degree murder for the death of firefighters putting out a fire you started. I'm not quite sure how I feel about this. The guy is horrible for starting that fire, but should he be charged with the premeditated murder of people who were doing their jobs to put it out? It's not likely he set the fire to trap those firefighter.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Phantom · 11-02-2006, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

Murder charges*filed in deaths of California firefighters - CNN.com

News 8 :: KFMB Stations, San Diego, California

I never really thought about it before, but I didn't realize they could charge someone with 1st degree murder for the death of firefighters putting out a fire you started. I'm not quite sure how I feel about this. The guy is horrible for starting that fire, but should he be charged with the premeditated murder of people who were doing their jobs to put it out? It's not likely he set the fire to trap those firefighter.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

He would likely be charged with felony-murder, not premeditated murder.

Cali (I'm pretty sure) still uses the 4 common law mindsets for murder. One of those is felony-murder. Here's the wiki article on the subject:

Felony murder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Scrum · 11-02-2006, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by Phantom

He would likely be charged with felony-murder, not premeditated murder.

Cali (I'm pretty sure) still uses the 4 common law mindsets for murder. One of those is felony-murder. Here's the wiki article on the subject:

Felony murder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ahh. Makes much more sense now.

Thanks for the link. Still not sure if I agree with the idea though.

Phantom · 11-02-2006, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

Ahh. Makes much more sense now.

Thanks for the link. Still not sure if I agree with the idea though.

I don't really like it either, but the arguments are strong for both sides.

Stylerod · 11-02-2006, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

Ahh. Makes much more sense now.

Me to. I was confused about pre-meditated murder. But what ever murder class they charge him in, if he is found guilty they need to give him the highest punishment allowable.

7960 · 11-02-2006, 05:09 PM

Did he intentionally set the fire?
(assuming yes)
Should he have known someone was going to fight it?
(assuming yes)
Should he have known it was likely that someone would be hurt?
(he should have)

Murder, I'm not sure, but he should spend a long, long time in jail.

RMNIXON · 11-02-2006, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

Ahh. Makes much more sense now.

Thanks for the link. Still not sure if I agree with the idea though.

If you know the circumstances it also make much more sense. We are not talking about some kid setting a barn on fire. When that dry area lites up and the Santa Ana winds sweep through those mountains it is very dangerous and many lives have been lost over the years. It is very rare to have lost so many men in one incident, but the danger is well known by everbody who lives in these areas.

AVengeance · 11-03-2006, 10:42 AM

Does anyone have a motive on this? I mean, murder would be appropriate, perhaps along with terrorism charges, depending on his goal.

ballz2wallz · 11-03-2006, 10:44 AM

They mentioned the death penalty for this guy last night.

6SpeedTA95 · 11-03-2006, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

They mentioned the death penalty for this guy last night.

To get nailed for murder you ahve to be able to prove intent.

Scrum · 11-03-2006, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

To get nailed for murder you ahve to be able to prove intent.

It's weird because they are citing some "special circumstance" clause. They may not have to prove intent to kill, only disregard for the lives lost.

It could still be difficult to prove, but it looks like that's how they are going to pursue it.

Phantom · 11-03-2006, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

To get nailed for murder you ahve to be able to prove intent.

With felony murder no intent to kill is required. If one proves the requisite intent for the underlying felony (arson), it is considered good enough to nail someone with murder when a death occurs.

I think the Supreme Court has limited the death penalty in felony murder cases, but I don't remember where the line was drawn.

Scrum · 11-03-2006, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Phantom

With felony murder no intent to kill is required. If one proves the requisite intent for the underlying felony (arson), it is considered good enough to nail someone with murder when a death occurs.

I think the Supreme Court has limited the death penalty in felony murder cases, but I don't remember where the line was drawn.

This will be an interesting case to watch develop.

motivez · 11-04-2006, 06:09 PM

I have no problems seeing someone charged with murder for setting a fire that kills someone honestly.

What if it was in a neighborhood and someone set your house on fire while you were in it and wound up killing a family member?

I don't think the fact that it's forest changes it.. people hike, camp, etc.. and whoever it was knew ahead of time that he'd be putting people in harms way.

6SpeedTA95 · 11-05-2006, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

I have no problems seeing someone charged with murder for setting a fire that kills someone honestly.

What if it was in a neighborhood and someone set your house on fire while you were in it and wound up killing a family member?

I don't think the fact that it's forest changes it.. people hike, camp, etc.. and whoever it was knew ahead of time that he'd be putting people in harms way.

You're exactly right.

Kytro · 11-06-2006, 04:12 AM

There are really two separate issue involved in this situation, regardless of legal options:

1) Intent

This plays a role in so far as world-view and likelihood of future ability to integrate with society. This is a practical matter. There are always a number of people who want to make others pay, but revenge motivated punishment is not of much use.

2) Outcome

This should help determine the severity of the penalty, taking into account the above factors. Depriving one of something such as freedom should really only occur if they are likely to be risk to society otherwise. In this circumstance that may very well be the case.

IminWonderland · 11-06-2006, 04:36 AM

I find it kinda weird that all this hub bub about the firefighters that died. I've lived through a many Cali fire seasons, and never before has the reaction from the public been so......hysterical? I'm not at all saying that it shouldn't be a big deal, or that I like arson or anything, but do you realize that they had the memorial at one of the biggest Concert venues in So Cal, and 10,000 people came? That's a huge funeral. That seems weird to me....like, I am trying to figure out how Joe Blow from Norco California decides he is going to go to a FireFighter Memorial, not knowing any of them....I know that it is totally good intentions, and that it's because they care about the fire fighters and their families. It just seems this incident is really extreme, and we've had fires that have lasted WEEKS and killed as many as this one did....

But as far as the murder rap for the guy....I don't know if I would define what he did as "murder" I agree with the punishment if he's guilty, I just think they should call it something else.

Kytro · 11-06-2006, 07:57 AM

Something which is an interesting point is how the reaction would be if the fire was not lit by people but rather nature.

It would be sad and tragic, but people wouldn't be as angry. I'm not saying they don't have the right to be, but it is interesting how people always seem to want someone to blame.

IminWonderland · 11-06-2006, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Kytro

Something which is an interesting point is how the reaction would be if the fire was not lit by people but rather nature.

It would be sad and tragic, but people wouldn't be as angry. I'm not saying they don't have the right to be, but it is interesting how people always seem to want someone to blame.

Oh totally. And these huge fires that we've had not all of them they even find out the cause...

I think that this has been fueled a bit by the media...it's kind of sensational....

7960 · 11-06-2006, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by Kytro

Something which is an interesting point is how the reaction would be if the fire was not lit by people but rather nature.

It would be sad and tragic, but people wouldn't be as angry. I'm not saying they don't have the right to be, but it is interesting how people always seem to want someone to blame.

I don't know if it's wanting someone to blame as much as it is wanting to see the person responsible pay. Fact is lghtening didn't start the fire so these guys were out there risking their lives becasue some asshole felt like starting a fire. It's common sense that the more fires there are the more chance there is for injury/death...this guy started a fire and added to those chances. He deserves to pay.