Was David Koresh murdered because he tried to open the Seven Seals? While there are many who approve of the government actions taken on the Waco Siege from February 28 – April 19, 1993, there are also many who are rightfully critical of the actions of the ATF/FBI/Clinton Administration and ...
12-03-2010, 10:41 PM
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| Noob Independent 
| David Koresh and the Seven Seals Was David Koresh murdered because he tried to open the Seven Seals? While there are many who approve of the government actions taken on the Waco Siege from February 28 – April 19, 1993, there are also many who are rightfully critical of the actions of the ATF/FBI/Clinton Administration and correctly see this as a shameful example of government tyranny. But, are most of the people who are critical of the federal government’s involvement in the Waco Siege missing something important? I suggest that this is indeed the case! This was not just government tyranny for tyranny’s sake, this was government tyranny for a specific unbelievably evil purpose. The top echelon of the government was very worried that David Koresh would be able to open the Seven Seals! This was the real reason he and his followers were murdered! But worry not, Good will be victorious in the end, as the Divine Plan unfolds. I will leave you now with the following quotes. Make your own decision: Branch Davidian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ”By the time of the siege, Koresh had encouraged his followers to think of themselves as "students of the Seven Seals" rather than as "Branch Davidians."” David Koresh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia “A poor student who was illiterate and diagnosed with dyslexia, Koresh dropped out of Garland High School in his junior year. Due to his poor study skills, he was put in special ed classes and nicknamed "Vernie" by his fellow students,[2] but by the age of 11, he had memorized the entire New Testament.[1]” Here is an interesting sequence from the interesting documentary Waco: The Rules of Engagment. Watch at around seven minutes, the young british woman states that she joined David Koresh’s community because he was the only one who could really explain to her the meaning of the Seven Seals: http://www.fountain.btinternet.co.uk...ngs/index.html "Only one question. I don't care if you're into drugs. Drugs are bad! You should know - they're killing you. I don't care if you're an alchoholic. You know that alchohol is wrong! I don't care if you can't keep your marriage together. All I care about, when I judge men, is one thing - do you want to know the Seven Seals. " David Koresh, January 3, 1992. The New Revelation – John the Divine Versus the Anunnaki God ” The leader of the Branch Davidians in Waco, Texas, began openly interpreting the book and attempting to open the seals. Although Koresh did not have the “key”, his ties to Jesus made him a target for attacks from the agents of Darkness. Koresh, in fact, was a decoy for the one who would later unlock the seals of the book. It was not time yet for the exposure. Koresh pleaded with the authorities to let him finish unlocking the seven seals of the book. Unbeknownst to him, this was the very thing that caused the BATF to rush the compound and burn the residents therein.” From Livingstone Fagan (Waco Survivor who was subsequently jailed by the government) http://www.fountain.btinternet.co.uk...tings/LIV3.TXT “David Koresh showed us the Seals. That which is not lawful for a man to do. In killing Him the details of that knowledge was once again rejected. But not without Witnesses. Moreover, on this occasion the knowledge concerning the Seven Seals being the subject matter of the Judgement, is made available to man. Ours is not a Theory of Religion. We lived it, and also died for it. Spirit and truth have met, and are joined in each other. Livingstone Fagan July 13, 1993” ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.fountain.btinternet.co.uk...tings/DKBS.TXT David Koresh And Byron Sage Conversation Recorded March 17, 1993 1:45 p.m. - 2:05 p.m. KORESH: (interrupts) I'm not emotional. SAGE: and I will try to do the same, but listen they did not step one foot on your property until you went back on your word. KORESH: That is a lie. SAGE: That is not a lie. KORESH: That is a lie. SAGE: That is absolute fact. KORESH: And you will find out in the judgement that you're fixin' to witness that it was lie. You will find out very clearly every detail, every thought, every statement made, every, every ah, manipulation done behind the scenes will be made apparent to you. You do not understand what you're dealing with. You do not understand what position of time you're in. This nation does not understand. I know you don't want to hear this. SAGE: No I wanna hear it because I, I answer to the same God you do pal, but you don't have a corner on the market. KORESH: (interrupts) No you do not. You do not know the seals Mr. BYRON. You do not understand the seals. There are scholars that would help you out. There are scholars who would understand the indepthness of what I stated over the radio. SAGE: DAVID can I ask you a question? KORESH: Yes. SAGE: Okay. I've read the same book, okay? I was, I, I found my Savior in a, in a ah, situation in Vietnam where I realized that I wasn't in control of my life. KORESH: Right. SAGE: Okay? I read the same book that you are, are founding your faith on. I respect that book. I respect your faith, but I read in the Scripture and I, and I'm not a, I'm not claiming to be a Bible ah, ah, theologian and I'm not claiming to be anywhere near as well versed in word and quotation as you are and I respect that capability but I find in that book that that book says the only person, the only person the only entity that can open those seven seals is the Lamb of God. KORESH: Exactly. SAGE: I don't claim for a moment to have that capability and you know as well as I do that your challenge to us from day one to just "just get somebody in here that can open these seven seals and I all my people will come out." KORESH: Exactly. SAGE: That's garbage. KORESH: Exactly. SAGE: It's garbage, it's a false hope and you know that. KORESH: No it's not. On the contrary these people remain here because I have thoroughly opened to them the seven seals. See if you had understood... SAGE: Well then you have a message that's extremely valuable that you need to share with the rest of this world. The only way you can do that DAVID is if you if we can get this matter resolved when, when you come out you'll will be provided withtthat opportunity and I'll be in the front of the line to listen to it. KORESH: That's not where you remain ignorant. It's not your fault. I do not hold you contemptible for that, but you remain ignorant to understand what is actually being applied at this very time. See when it says in 22 I come they reward is me, it's very clearly identified that when Christ comes the identifying mark will be the knowledge of those seven seals. SAGE: And so you are now claiming clearly and simply that you are the Christ. KORESH: I am saying that no man can know me nor my father unless they open their book and give a fair chance in honesty and equity to see the seals. SAGE: Okay. KORESH: Chapter 10 shows that when there's time no longer this mystery of God the seven founders which are the seven seals will be finished as God has declared to his servant the prophet. The keynote is that from Deuteronomy 32 the song of Moses... SAGE: DAVID. DAVID. In all due respect and I, I would, I would love to and I, I'm telling you that I genuinely would ah, and I'm committed to doing this to, to research what you're telling us and so forth, but we need to get the matter of the standoff as we have it right now resolved. KORESH: Well, that's what we're aiming to do. SAGE: Then you can bring this form forward. KORESH: But we're gonna, we gonna also have to comply to the fact that if I am right... you people are in more trouble than I am! SAGE: I, I couldn't agree with you more! KORESH: This nation is a (unintelligible)... SAGE: DAVID do you hear what I just told ya? I couldn't agree with you more. I know what you're, what you're talkin' about. KORESH: and that's from your religious conviction, but now where we stand at this present time is that you come in the name of this nation, I come to you in the name of God, a God who has declared in heaven that no man on earth, neither under earth, anywhere in heaven can open this book neither look thereon. Now it would be a definite miracle in after 2,000 years of all the scholars of the so called world not to know the seals especially if they're plainly recorded in the prophecies. So what I've asked of you is a very simple thing I've asked you simply... SAGE: What you've asked of me and what you've asked of the, of the Biblical scholars... KORESH: of the nation who says in God we trust on their currency... SAGE: That's right. KORESH: (unintelligible) bounces the sanctuary right now see things are taking place around you don't know. I would like to show you these things, I would like to impart this knowledge to you,... SAGE: Then please come out and show us, that's all we're askin' here. KORESH: I am more willing to come out when I get my message from my commander. SAGE: Let me, can I, can I mention a couple things to you that I really think you need to realize. Your message, you had the, the absolute Zenith... opportunity to get your message out and it was broadcast and we facilitated it, we're not the, the, the anti-Christ here we're not the, the evil doers we... KORESH: That, that remains to be seen. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.fountain.btinternet.co.uk...ings/WORDS.TXT The Last Recorded Words Of David Koresh Recorded April 16 & 18, 1993 (May Be Copied And Circulated) Narrated by Prof. James Tabor, author of Why Waco? (University of California Press) Transcribed by Mark Swett at The Reserach Center in Westbrook, Maine. Narration: This tape contains the last recorded words of David Koresh. It's taken from telephone conversations between David Koresh and the FBI negotiators. It was recorded by the government, and the tapes were recently released by the Justice Department. The tape has two segments. The first is from April 16 - a Friday. It is from the wee hours of the morning, and David has just optimistically reported to the FBI negotiator that he's finished the first chapter, or segment of his manuscript on the Seven Seals of the book of Revelation. He had pledged on the previous Wednesday, and sent out a signed legal agreement, that he would exit the Mt. Carmel Center upon completion of the manuscript. The tone of the conversation is quite optimistic and upbeat, both from David's side and from the side of the FBI listening to his report. FBI: That's why you need to get it done before you leave there then. Koresh: That's why I'm gonna complete it, because you see, you know as well as I do that people in this world they want something dramatic and sensational. They don't want to have to sit - No one's gonna sit there - and let me sit there in front of a camera and read Psalms 40 to them - to prove the first seal. Dick, it's a real world, and that's why I'm sympathetic with your position. I realize you're frustrated, and I agree with you. FBI: Now listen. Let's get back to the point in hand. This ah - you know - the writing of the seals. OK. You've got to do that in there, and it's gonna take you x amount of time. But - just tell me this David - are you saying that when you finish that manuscript - FBI: So you go on paper here and said that David Koresh told me that as soon as he finishes this manuscript - the seven seals - of which you've finished the first chapter dealing with the first seal - Koresh: The first seal - right. FBI: That you're gonna make that available - Koresh: I'll be splitting out of this place. I'm so sick of MRE's - Dick - that ah - FBI: Well, I just want to make sure that I have this right - that you're coming out. As soon as that's finished - Koresh: That's what - it was said by the attorney's - FBI: Well, I know - I know. Koresh: That's what I'm saying - FBI: OK. Koresh: It's clarified. Lock, stock, and barrel it. FBI: OK. Then - you know what? I'm keeping you from getting back to work. So I'm - you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna let you go so that you can get back to work, because David, frankly I'm eagerly awaiting this manuscript. Koresh: Well, I'll tell you what. It's gonna blow your socks off. FBI: Well - I'm - I'm perfectly willing to - to read it, and I'm looking forward to it as a member - Koresh: You'll either hate me or love me then. FBI: Well, I want to read it - and then - I'll - you now - make a decision then, and we'll see how it goes. And in the meantime, ah - you know - let's get that thing written. Narration: The first chapter of David's manuscript that had been completed was carried out of the burning building on April 19 by his secretary and stenographer Ruth Riddle. That was on a computer disk. This disk was subsequently turned over to David's attorney Dick DeGuerin, and according to David's instructions DeGuerin passed it on to James Tabor and Phil Arnold. It's now published in the appendix to a recent book, "Why Waco? Cults and the Battle for Religious Freedom in America." It also - the book contains a commentary by Arnold and Tabor on the manuscript. This next segment of the tape is indeed the last recorded words, or conversation of David Koresh. It was recorded on April the 18th - Sunday - the day before the fire at about two o'clock in the afternoon. Koresh called the FBI negotiators. He's quite upset and angry, because they've begun to remove cars and clear the area in front of the building. First of all, he is upset that evidence might be destroyed that would relate to what had happened on February 28 in the initial BATF raid on Mt.Carmel. Secondly, he is concerned about property damage in general. And it's clear from the tone of his voice that he suspects that something might be up, and that indeed the agreement that he feels he's reached with the FBI to write the manuscript, and then exit peacefully, could fall apart and not be carried out. Koresh: In 1985, I presented a truth. And everybody that's here - I had to debate and I had to talk to, and I had show from the scriptures. I had to prove my point for many hours, days, months, and sometimes years with certain people here. Koresh: I'm gonna finish my book or I'm not gonna finish my book. FBI: Well, I hope that you do. Koresh: Look. You denounce the fact that I have a God that communicates with me. That's - that's the first mistake that we - that we make. Koresh: That's what you say. I - I think that you are lying. As a matter of fact, I know that when the first month or so that I'm out, I'm gonna be bombarded all of the time with nothing but people wanting to know Koresh - asking this - asking that. FBI: And if you were working on the seven seals - I mean - nobody would bother you. I mean - why would you - why would that have to happen? Koresh: Look some progress is being made. You don't realize what kind of progress is being made. There are people all over this world who are going to benefit from this book of the seven seals. You don't seem to understand. FBI: And what you don't seem to understand is - is that the people here want to see that kind of progress, but other kind of progress. There's no reason why you couldn't be doing the same very thing that you are doing now within the place out here. Koresh: That's not true. What you're saying is not based on truth. FBI: Why not? Why not? What do you mean it's not - Koresh: Because it's just not. Koresh: It's a different more high profile case type situation. I just - I just suggest that it - it would be a very bad thing for you to - to keep destroying all this evidence out here. FBI: Well - you - know - I really don't have any control over that. Koresh: I mean what are they doing? Are they - are you covering up the ATF? That's exactly what it appears you're doing. FBI: David, what we're trying to do is were trying - Koresh: It's wrong! You're doing wrong before God - before man. You are doing wrong! You adding to your wrong. FBI: David, you're the one that's doing wrong. Koresh: No. No. No. No. No. No. No. FBI: You seem to have - Koresh: No. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/tex...%20Scholarship On Wednesday, April 14th, just five days before the fire that consumed the compound, David Koresh released a letter through his lawyer. It was to be his last. He said that at long last his wait was over; that he had been instructed by God to write an exposition expounding the secrets of the Seven Seals of Revelation. David Koresh wrote: "I am presently being permitted to document in structured form the decoded messages of the Seven Seals. Upon the completion of this task, I will be freed of my waiting period. I hope to finish this as soon as possible and stand before man and answer any and all questions regarding my activities. . . I have been praying for so long for this opportunity to put the Seals in written form. I want the people of this generation to be saved. I am working night and day to complete my final work of writing out these seals. I thank my Father, He has finally granted me this chance to do this. It will bring new light and hope for many and they won't have to deal with me the person. . . As soon as I can see that people like Jim Tabor and Phil Arnold have a copy, I will come out and then you can do your thing with this beast. " | ||||
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12-03-2010, 11:08 PM
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| Living In Ideological Fantasy Land  Classic Liberal North Carolina
| For those who actually paid attention to what happened, he got in trouble because he was doing two things that ATF love to get excited over: selling firearms on the fly, and actually doing things that would tend to have his group labeled a cult. Add "cult" and " firearms" together, and ATF starts hyperventilating and eventually has a Cow, before going into "tilt" mode. Which is what those Turkeys did, and initially they had there arses handed back to them on a platter, because they strutted into town, broadcasting what they were going to do, and Koresh found out easily. And they were waiting for them. Now was ATF within their jurisdiction to do all this? Not only no, but Hell No! It was also a put down of bad information, in true CYA tradition. Just thinking about makes me livid. But about the Seven Seals? As that TV/Movie actor used to say "Get Out Of town!" | ||||
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12-05-2010, 03:52 AM
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| Subliminal  libertarian Michigan
| David Koresh was killed because he was a kid-molesting, machine gun selling, asshole rapist who got what was coming to him. Was the WACO incident handled poorly? Incredibly. Was David Koresh a decent person? No and thankfully he died Last edited by wanna be drummer; 12-05-2010 at 11:13 AM.. | ||||
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12-05-2010, 10:27 AM
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| Living In Ideological Fantasy Land Classic Liberal North Carolina
| Originally Posted by wanna be drummer He was a bad little tyrant. But the real culprit here is the government. 
What was that passage in the bible about "Pride"?
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12-05-2010, 11:15 AM
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| Subliminal libertarian Michigan
| Originally Posted by CharlieK They're blamed with good reason. They messed up on that one big time. But at the same time, you can't have a David Koresh running around with assault rifles and raping young girls. He had to die. My sympathy, however, goes towards to th children who died. That to me is one of the biggest fuckups in USA history.
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12-05-2010, 12:12 PM
| #6 | ||||
| Living In Ideological Fantasy Land Classic Liberal North Carolina
| Originally Posted by wanna be drummer I totally agree with the 'rape' part, even if it was statutory in nature. But about the "assault rifles", are you certain they really were "assault rifles", or look-alikes, that were actually semi-automatic? There is a huge difference, which many fail to differentiate. If the later, it is perfectly legal to own, and trade in them. Fully automatic weapons have been controlled since the 1930s.
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12-05-2010, 12:16 PM
| #7 | ||||
| Subliminal libertarian Michigan
| Originally Posted by CharlieK Of course I know the differenfe but I've always read that they were using fully-automatic assault rifles.
In any case, it was believed that he was selling them illegally regardless | ||||
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12-05-2010, 12:36 PM
| #8 | ||||
| Living In Ideological Fantasy Land Classic Liberal North Carolina
| Originally Posted by wanna be drummer It's been a good while now, but if I recall, the Feds were finally forced to acknowledge that the available evidence showed there not to be evidence supporting their contention that the group was trafficing in automatic weapons.
This must have been a hard pill to swallow, since they went 'whole hog' over portraiting them as evil cultist. | ||||
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