Peaceful coexistence between scientists and theologians

kowalskil · 01-19-2011, 10:33 PM

I would very much like to know what people on this website think about peaceful coexistence between those who study our material world (scientists) and those who study our spiritual world (theologians). My attempt to write an essay on that subject failed, as you can see at:

Spirituality and science

The webpage was prepared to generate a discussion. Those who post comments should refer to specific “contributions,” as numbered (or to specific persons, as numbered at the beginning). This will simplify the discussion.

And let us keep in mind that the main topic is peaceful coexistence. Is it possible? Is it desirable? What should we do promote it? etc.

Thank you in advance,

Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)

Davy Cock'it · 01-21-2011, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by kowalskil

I would very much like to know what people on this website think about peaceful coexistence between those who study our material world (scientists) and those who study our spiritual world (theologians). My attempt to write an essay on that subject failed, as you can see at:

Spirituality and science

The webpage was prepared to generate a discussion. Those who post comments should refer to specific “contributions,” as numbered (or to specific persons, as numbered at the beginning). This will simplify the discussion.

And let us keep in mind that the main topic is peaceful coexistence. Is it possible? Is it desirable? What should we do promote it? etc.

Thank you in advance,

Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)

Umm, isn't a Theologist a Social Scientist?!

LookingUp · 01-21-2011, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by kowalskil

I would very much like to know what people on this website think about peaceful coexistence between those who study our material world (scientists) and those who study our spiritual world (theologians). My attempt to write an essay on that subject failed, as you can see at:

Originally Posted by kowalskil

Spirituality and science

The webpage was prepared to generate a discussion. Those who post comments should refer to specific “contributions,” as numbered (or to specific persons, as numbered at the beginning). This will simplify the discussion.

And let us keep in mind that the main topic is peaceful coexistence. Is it possible? Is it desirable? What should we do promote it? etc.

Thank you in advance,

Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)

I think peaceful co-existence is possible between true science and true spirituality. When I say true, I mean simply true, as there are many false ideas in the scientific category as well as the spiritual. I think a peaceful co-existence should be pursued with truth always as the objective. But I don’t think atheistic scientists would be willing to start at the place where I think one must start and that is with an acknowledgment of a Creator of the universe, as many of the scientists of the past did.

Without this acknowledgement of God, our Creator, whose image I believe we were made in then I don’t think we can fully understand who we are or accurately understand the world and universe around us. It is easy for humans to make-up false ideas about God or create a myriad of false god ideas if we have no desire to know the truth and reject the information the Creator has given to us. There really should be no conflict between scientific study of the world and universe and the study of the One who made it all.

I agree that the answer to your first two questions: Did God create us on his image? Did we create God on our image? , is yes. God’s Word addresses this:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Romans1:18-25

willis · 01-21-2011, 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by LookingUp

I think peaceful co-existence is possible between true science and true spirituality. When I say true, I mean simply true, as there are many false ideas in the scientific category as well as the spiritual. I think a peaceful co-existence should be pursued with truth always as the objective. But I don’t think atheistic scientists would be willing to start at the place where I think one must start and that is with an acknowledgment of a Creator of the universe, as many of the scientists of the past did.

Without this acknowledgement of God, our Creator, whose image I believe we were made in then I don’t think we can fully understand who we are or accurately understand the world and universe around us. It is easy for humans to make-up false ideas about God or create a myriad of false god ideas if we have no desire to know the truth and reject the information the Creator has given to us. There really should be no conflict between scientific study of the world and universe and the study of the One who made it all.

oh sweet, as long as we all agree with you that you are right we can all peacefully coexist..

LookingUp · 01-22-2011, 01:08 AM

[quote=willis;300649]oh sweet, as long as we all agree with you that you are right we can all peacefully coexist.. [/quote]

No, it is not me, but God we must agree with and then we could and would all peacefully co-exist. It would indeed be very sweet.

kowalskil · 01-22-2011, 09:58 AM

"X wrote: 'oh sweet, as long as we all agree with you that you are right we can all peacefully coexist.' No, it is not me, but God we must agree with and then we could and would all peacefully co-exist. It would indeed be very sweet."

God is not a material entity, to be studied by methodology of those who study our material world. This does not conflict with science or with deism, in my not so humble opinion.

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ChadLS · 01-22-2011, 12:58 PM

I don't believe God can be proved nor disproved, it is all a matter of belief. I am only a Junior Engineering student, so my knowledge of science is somewhat limited, however I have not seen anything that I believe can prove nor disprove the existence of God. Like you said:

Originally Posted by kowalskil

God is not a material entity, to be studied by methodology of those who study our material world.

Scientists cannot 'study' God. You cannot prove God exists or doesn't, and so I believe it is entirely possible to study science and be religious. In my opinion the belief in God comes down to the person, who has their own reasons for belief or non-belief based off of life experiences and the intangible 'soul' of the person.

Is it possible for the religious and atheists to co-exist? That is a more difficult topic, as it seems it would be based on a case-to-case basis. For example; I am religious, I have friends who are not. We simply choose to respect each other's view points, leading to peaceful coexistance. However, I have also met those on extreme sides of the spectrum who seem to lack the ability to keep an open mind, and immediately become offended at the other person's opinion.

LookingUp · 01-22-2011, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by kowalskil

"God is not a material entity, to be studied by methodology of those who study our material world. This does not conflict with science or with deism, in my not so humble opinion.
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I agree with this opinion.

LookingUp · 01-22-2011, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by ChadLS

We simply choose to respect each other's view points, leading to peaceful coexistance. However, I have also met those on extreme sides of the spectrum who seem to lack the ability to keep an open mind, and immediately become offended at the other person's opinion.

You are so correct, RESPECT is the key.

ChadLS · 01-23-2011, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by LookingUp

You are so correct, RESPECT is the key.

I agree, nobody enjoys being told what to do.

willis · 01-24-2011, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by LookingUp

I think peaceful co-existence is possible between true science and true spirituality. When I say true, I mean simply true, as there are many false ideas in the scientific category as well as the spiritual. I think a peaceful co-existence should be pursued with truth always as the objective. But I don’t think atheistic scientists would be willing to start at the place where I think one must start and that is with an acknowledgment of a Creator of the universe, as many of the scientists of the past did.

Without this acknowledgement of God, our Creator, whose image I believe we were made in then I don’t think we can fully understand who we are or accurately understand the world and universe around us. It is easy for humans to make-up false ideas about God or create a myriad of false god ideas if we have no desire to know the truth and reject the information the Creator has given to us. There really should be no conflict between scientific study of the world and universe and the study of the One who made it all.

Originally Posted by LookingUp

You are so correct, RESPECT is the key.

How do you reconcile these two??

respect is the key according to you, yet your first response here was that to coexist peacefully aetheists need to acknowledge the truth of your god. Where is your respect for their beliefs in that idea?

LookingUp · 01-24-2011, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by willis

How do you reconcile these two??

respect is the key according to you, yet your first response here was that to coexist peacefully aetheists need to acknowledge the truth of your god. Where is your respect for their beliefs in that idea?

First, I want to state that it is not my truth or ideathat I want or am trying to get anyone to agree with or believe. I am no different than you or any atheist, in that I had to come to the place where I accepted God for who He is and believe what He says about Himself, regardless of my own ideas to the contrary. Knowing and being in a right relationship with the Creator and Savior of the world is so awesome that I like to talk about it. It is the most important aspect of my life. But the reality is that every individual has the right and responsibility to find out the truth about God for themselves.

Whether or not I am in disagreement with an atheist or anyone, for that matter, on subjects such as God, politics, or whatever I can still listen, show consideration, kindness, and respect. I don’t need an atheist to agree with me before I can show them respect. There are atheists that I respect and care very much about. Discussing things, having differences of opinion and even arguing is not necessarily a lack of respect.

sky writer · 01-24-2011, 02:55 PM

If you are telling atheists they need to respect the truth of your God you are not respecting them.

You are also not respecting people who practice non-theistic religions like Buddhism.

Davy Cock'it · 01-24-2011, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by sky writer

If you are telling atheists they need to respect the truth of your God you are not respecting them.

You are also not respecting people who practice non-theistic religions like Buddhism.

Okay Luke, then what are you suggesting?

LookingUp · 01-25-2011, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by sky writer

If you are telling atheists they need to respect the truth of your God you are not respecting them.

You are also not respecting people who practice non-theistic religions like Buddhism.

I think this is drifting from the subject of the thread and I would be interested to hear more on the original subject from kowalskil. I will respond further in a new thread in the Religion and Philosophy section.

willis · 01-25-2011, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by LookingUp

I think this is drifting from the subject of the thread and I would be interested to hear more on the original subject from kowalskil. I will respond further in a new thread in the Religion and Philosophy section.

how is it drifting further? the original question was can science and theology peacefully coexist. the implication in that question is that science is outside theology (not necessarily true but for the purpose of the thread call it close enough).

your original response was yes they can coexist as long as scientists accept the truth of god.

that response contradicts itself entirely. existence in the terms you put it is science accepting god and then existing, not existing without accepting god.

kowalskil · 01-26-2011, 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by LookingUp

I think this is drifting from the subject of the thread and I would be interested to hear more on the original subject from kowalskil. I will respond further in a new thread in the Religion and Philosophy section.

Mutual respect will come naturally, but it might take long time. The very first step, in my opinion, should be to agree on existence of two separate worlds. Each side should agree on not using its own methodology of validation/refutation in the other world.
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LookingUp · 01-26-2011, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by kowalskil

Mutual respect will come naturally, but it might take long time. The very first step, in my opinion, should be to agree on existence of two separate worlds. Each side should agree on not using its own methodology of validation/refutation in the other world.
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What do you mean by agreeing to the existence of “two separate worlds”? Do you mean scientific and religious or do you mean material and spiritual? If you mean the latter, I don’t think scientists who are atheists would be able to come to such an agreement.

I do believe scientific observation, research, and investigation can and does take place outside of theology. Whether or not one believes in God does not necessarily hinder straightforward scientific methodology in most areas. But a person’s worldview can impact one’s perspective in some areas, such as origin of life. Nevertheless, I see no reason for a lack of respect in discussing or looking into areas even where there is disagreement.

kowalskil · 01-27-2011, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by LookingUp

What do you mean by agreeing to the existence of “two separate worlds”? Do you mean scientific and religious or do you mean material and spiritual? If you mean the latter, I don’t think scientists who are atheists would be able to come to such an agreement.

I do believe scientific observation, research, and investigation can and does take place outside of theology. Whether or not one believes in God does not necessarily hinder straightforward scientific methodology in most areas. But a person’s worldview can impact one’s perspective in some areas, such as origin of life. Nevertheless, I see no reason for a lack of respect in discussing or looking into areas even where there is disagreement.

The terms "physical and metaphysical" can also be used. The absence of respect is often present; I do not know how often.
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