Now that the Democrats have been given Rumsfeld's head...

[DosEquis]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

PNAC was nothing more than an idea yrs ago. Kristol laughed off the questions about it months ago.

This has nothing to do with recent events.

Wolfowitz wrote the "Bush doctrine" in like 1993 or 1994. Back then it was called something else and deemed to controversial, but either way what he wrote then was passed after 9/11. It contained things like preemptive war is legitimate if we deem it in our "best security interests".

They wrote letters to Clinton repeatedly about invading Iraq because we had to "remove the weapons of mass destruction".

Nope... they had no influence in our policy.

[DosEquis]

Members of the Bush administration that are members of PNAC include:

Elliott Abrams - National security council
Richard Armitage - Deputy secretary of state
John R Bolton - UN Ambassador
Richard Cheney - Vice President
Seth Cropsey - Director of international broadcasting bureau
Paula Dobriansky - Undersecretary of State for global affairs
Francis Fukuyama - Presidents council on bioethics
Bruce Jackson - President US committee on NATO
Lewis Libby - Chief of staff for the vice president
Peter Rodman - DoD Assistant secretary of defense
Donald Rumsfeld - Secretary of defense
Paul Wolfowitz - President world bank
Robert Zoellick - Deputy secretary of state

Here is there letter to Clinton in 1998 urging the invasion of Iraq (please note those who signed the letter):

Letter to President Clinton on Iraq

[DosEquis]

PNAC was also not an idea from "years ago". In 2005 they wrote a letter to congress saying there needs to be more soldiers sent to Iraq because there are not enough to get the job done. 2005 is not years ago. This group is influencing, if not developing, our foreign policy.

[motivez]

It's essentially been in control of our foreign policy agenda since Bush took office.. look at the people in key positions throughout his Administration and a surprising number of them are PNAC members.

It's not some conspiracy, their names are right on the website. They have a foreign policy agenda and have been carrying it out for 6 years.

[avsp]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

PNAC was nothing more than an idea yrs ago. Kristol laughed off the questions about it months ago.

Well he would say that wouldnt he?

This has nothing to do with recent events.

For the good of my blood pressure, ...,
{ptt outbeak}
citation of signature

[mididoctors]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

PNAC was nothing more than an idea yrs ago. Kristol laughed off the questions about it months ago.

This has nothing to do with recent events.

That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read here or anywhere else.

I just wonder what Rumsfeld will get upto now. He sounds bitter IMO

Boris
London

[avsp]

Rons got a kwik summary of various neo-con types all claiming it wasnt their fault that this all went tits up

Bush's 'neocons' in crisis after midterm election rout

[Scrum]

I just want to point out that it wasn't only Democrats calling for Rumsfeld to be gone and I have been hearing that they are doing cartwheels at the pentagon since the news.

[mididoctors]

Originally Posted by avsp

Rons got a kwik summary of various neo-con types all claiming it wasnt their fault that this all went tits up

Bush's 'neocons' in crisis after midterm election rout

i don't buy this Perle "i didn't actually plan the operation thing" or the post invasion strategy was poor..

If he is not expert enough to assess how the operation should have be planned IE NOT AN EXPERT he shouldn't go round pressurising the president and the admin to conduct operations which by his own admission he has no expertise in. You can't have it both ways on a issue like this.. to insist the operation is good policy and not claim a modicum of expertise or insight into the possible outcomes is worse that saying you were just flat wrong!

Because in essence your saying " I propose we conduct a high risk venture with a uncertain and potentially disastrous outcome and i have no actual insight in whether it would be a success or not, but I demand we do it anyway"

that is criminally reckless. AND I suspect its also true.. I do think he had no insight yet was convinced on the merits of the plan by prior assumptions concerning his own intelligence and world view.. which in hindsight is clearly flawed.

The lack of loyalty these f**ks show each other is telling as they are appalingly self serving .. this is a pyschological trait of men in power as they tend to identify personnel interest and public interest as the same thing

the ultimate expression of this is tyranny; Stalin, Saddam the nation is the man etc.

power or illusions of power twists people in the head

Boris
london

[avsp]

Their assumptions on how a mass of people will behave are, perhaps, based on a totally inappropriate extention of the axioms of free market economic theory into reality.

They see 'democracy' as a product to be sold.

Further their plan actually called for them to 'show resolve', to accept no criticism, to be arrogant. And why not, for they believed that they had just won the Cold War.

Lastly, & I feel this is crucial, they deliberately designed the plan with no exit strategy so that it could not be backed out of, ..., it was part of the determination/resolve display

So, now we're left with a huge mess that there is no easy way out of, with the President asking is anyone has a clue what to do.

Unfortunately the PNAC tactic of lying to the public means that there is insufficient understanding of all this & a massive distrust. Thus there is very great pressure for a pull-out ASAP when really thereis little alternative to press on regardless.

But pressing on without the necessecary extra commitment is too foolhardy to even think about.

The, IMO, 'mad' concern over Coalition troop deaths is the very last thing to motivate any action.

Its avoiding this mess escalating to a regional conflict & possibly WW3 that has to now be the aim.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

No Truth in Clinton White House Vandal Scandal, GSA Reports

Who said anything about vandalism? I said they stole furniture and art. That's a fact. Roughly $400k worth of items donated to the White House was moved to their mansion. The movers said Hillary told them to take it.

This happened around the same time Hillary wrote letters to political groups and people and registered at stores for expensive luxury items. She asked people to donate to their new home, but to hurry up and do so by Sept 3rd before the new Senate ethics rules kicked in or they'd end up in jail.

[mididoctors]

Originally Posted by avsp

Lastly, & I feel this is crucial, they deliberately designed the plan with no exit strategy so that it could not be backed out of, ..., it was part of the determination/resolve display

I wonder how true that is? I think its inherent with big high risk ventures that require commitment.

I think its certainly true at that level.. once you get some momentum its hard for anybody to stop you.. the trend is your friend etc...

I think the US is going to cede the region to the Iranians at this rate and get the f**k out

I don't know what sort of world that is

Gates is a former advocate of engagement with Tehran

for a US cut and run to work the Iranians need to show a high degree of diplomatic decorum in NOT overplaying the situation as a victory AND being able to convince other regional govs they have benign intentions

nevermind the politics in the US WTF will everyone over there make of a US withdrawal

the chinese are just going to invest with who ever is left standing irrespective of how deranged their world view is

and Israel.. will they go it alone? truly depart off the rails pre-emptivily

the magnitude and multiplicity of loose ends that comes with US withdrawal is as bad as staying and sinking without trace

I 'm with Bush! I am open to suggestions.

its an extraordinary thing.. the complacency.. even now is amazing

anybody seen wolfowitz?

it is actually his plan and where is he... quietly slipped out the back door and left the rest of them holding this shit sandwich.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a positive note I like all the bi-partizan talk and the republicans behaved honorably in defeat.. thou they can pile the blame on the neo con scapegoat too a large degree, with some justification.

it would help greatly if other nations extend an olive branch back to the US and lend a hand.. China russia france et al all have a vested interest in stopping this bloody chaos in the long run IMO..

if they try and take advantage... phut!

Boris
London

[garbagemanlb]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Who said anything about vandalism? I said they stole furniture and art. That's a fact. Roughly $400k worth of items donated to the White House was moved to their mansion. The movers said Hillary told them to take it.

This happened around the same time Hillary wrote letters to political groups and people and registered at stores for expensive luxury items. She asked people to donate to their new home, but to hurry up and do so by Sept 3rd before the new Senate ethics rules kicked in or they'd end up in jail.

Link to the Rush/Hannity website with the 'article' on this story?

[mididoctors]

the furniture in the white house is not important..

it really isn't

cos frankly a red on blue argument about who stole the towels or whatever does not supercede the primacy of the geopolitical impact of US policy in the ME.

you might think it does but your wrong.. if you really think it does your not only very much mistaken but you also have a disturbingly weird world view.

Boris
london

[DosEquis]

Gates not only advises that we talk to our enemys in Tehran and in North Korea, Syria, etc he is on the bipartison commission that is developing a report for options in Iraq along with James Baker.

I think this new guy and this group doing the study actually realizes we need the help of those around Iraq and that we won't accomplish anything without their help.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by The Nugent

Democrats won't win the House or the Senate

True story, these polls showing they will take 15+ seats in the House, and 7+ in the Senate are BS.

Democrats will pick up 5-7 seats in the House, and 2-3 in the Senate.

They won't take either.

In the 2008 election, they will take them back. But there will still be a republican president.

Originally Posted by 7960

But, there will be "strong evidence of voter fraud" in every district where a "democrat *should* have won"

As opposed to my prediction of the senate races EXACTLY and my prediction of house 26 seats (its 28 now) and the possibility of it going higher 35-40 (could hit 38 if the Dems got really lucky on recounts)

So, next time you want to consult someone on what the next political change is going to be...I think you know who to ignore and who to ask

[JaJae]

The House Subcommittee on Energy Policy, Natural Resources and Regulatory Affairs, chaired by Rep. Doug Ose (R.-Calif.) last week released a list of many of the gifts the Clintons removed from the White House when leaving office. These included $361,198 worth of gifts declared by the Clintons to be valued at more than S260 a piece. But the subcommittee also concluded that the Clintons retained "thousands of other gifts valued at less than $259, which were not required to be disclosed." Forty-nine percent of these gifts, said the panel, "were not appraised or otherwise independently valued."

Beyond furniture, gifts that the Clintons retained included valuable works of art. designer clothing, and historical artifacts. Many of these objects were never reported by the Clintons on their financial disclosure forms or were significantly undervalued (i.e. the Clintons claimed that a Ferragamo coat costing $1,600-$2,000 was worth only $800).

This stuff is everywhere and really not hard to find...

[Thorgrim]

so your unlinked source is saying the Clinton's kept their gifts and as President of the United States he didn't report it to the IRS in exactly the way a bitter republican wanted them to?

Well thats it, im throwing in the towel for the Democratic party now