9 9 9

DosEquis · 10-21-2011, 04:27 PM

At first 9-9-9 was supposed to be simple. Then people said it would raise taxes on a large number of people. Then he started to add complexity to it so that it didn't raise taxes as much for some.

Then the white guy with the niggerhead ranch said "you aren't being totally honest brother". To which herman basically replied "no it is not, it is simple, but there is more to it" (what?) and "you are talking apples and oranges".

Now the plan today is 9-0-9 for those at the poverty level. Why just now is it coming out? "It was in the plan all along" he says, didn't want to bore you details. Oooh ok. Bullshit. Moving on.

I really think romney is down to this guy because of two reasons, he isn't "right" enough and he is mormon.

The Esteemed Gentleman · 10-21-2011, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by DosEquis

Then the white guy with the niggerhead ranch said "you aren't being totally honest brother".

While I do not think Rick Perry is racist (his record in Texas seems to belie that notion from what I understand) it probably wasn't a good idea to call the black candidate "brother" (more than once). But maybe that's just because I'm a white guy and so is Perry. If Perry were black, we would not be having this conversation. (What's that say about race in America? More, unfortunately, than the fact that Perry owned a ranch that was once called "niggerhead" before he owned it.)

Originally Posted by DosEquis

I really think romney is down to this guy because of two reasons, he isn't "right" enough and he is mormon.

DosEquis · 10-21-2011, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by The Esteemed Gentleman

While I do not think Rick Perry is racist (his record in Texas seems to belie that notion from what I understand) it probably wasn't a good idea to call the black candidate "brother" (more than once). But maybe that's just because I'm a white guy and so is Perry. If Perry were black, we would not be having this conversation. (What's that say about race in America? More, unfortunately, than the fact that Perry owned a ranch that was once called "niggerhead" before he owned it.)

Um..white guys with a niggerhead ranch is going to be treated different. Nothing to do with favoritism. Having that same white guy call him brother raises eyebrows. I think any of the other candidates could have called him brother without such a eyebrow...maybe slight eyebrow raise...but not like perry.

The Esteemed Gentleman · 10-21-2011, 11:52 PM

Originally Posted by DosEquis

Um..white guys with a niggerhead ranch is going to be treated different. Nothing to do with favoritism. Having that same white guy call him brother raises eyebrows. I think any of the other candidates could have called him brother without such a eyebrow...maybe slight eyebrow raise...but not like perry.

Indeed, I agree that will raise eyebrows. But from what I've heard, Perry had a black chief of staff for a long time, nominated the first confirmed black chief justice in Texas history, signed hate crimes legislation, and has overall good race relations and history in Texas. (Could be wrong on some facts there; I am going on memory.)

I also think that calling people "brother" is how he speaks, but maybe not. I dunno, has anyone gone back and watched him speak to white guys calling them brother? If so, I think it's just the way he speaks rather than calling Cain a "brotha." Still, your point that he shouldn't call a black man "brother" with a ranch named what it was is well taken.

Swift · 10-23-2011, 11:23 PM

Yeah, I wish herman would've come out with 909 earlier. But in all honesty, I think that all people should pay some income taxes if anyone has to. It makes us all vested in the financial actions of the government.

With that said, I honestly think that all the candidates agree with Cain behind closed doors. But on stage, they don't think they'll get the support to dissolve the IRS so they blast him.

notquiteright · 10-24-2011, 10:02 AM

They would get that support from their own party and that is what counts now. The 999, 909, combined with whatever exemptions Candidate Cain will sprinkle in is a gimmick. As soon as you let one exemption in the door is open for many more. Only a very naive person thinks the powerful lobbyists will not fight this.

The main reason President Obama had his healthcare program gutted is he failed to consider how deep the special interest sector was dug into Washington politics.

If one stops and remembers what the original income tax rates were I don't see how anyone would think the 999 plan will stay 999 for long.

I'd rather see the overhaul look into the exemptions at all levels and hold each up to public scrutiny. While we are at it, a good look at who gets exempted from anti-trust laws would do a lot for the Middle Class.

DosEquis · 10-24-2011, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Swift

Yeah, I wish herman would've come out with 909 earlier. But in all honesty, I think that all people should pay some income taxes if anyone has to. It makes us all vested in the financial actions of the government.

With that said, I honestly think that all the candidates agree with Cain behind closed doors. But on stage, they don't think they'll get the support to dissolve the IRS so they blast him.

I don't think they support it on either side of the door.

I think our wars and some of the spending should be tied directly to taxation. You want to go to Iraq? OK american people its going to cost this much meaning we need to raise this much via taxation, bonds, etc. We have to pony up. Actually declare war via congress like we are supposed to. Things like that.

9% sales tax is a disaster, especially in states where (like here) there is already a 7% sales tax in place.

9% corporate tax is not enough.

9% for the middle class is kind of a wash, 9% for the wealthy is a huge tax break.

Overall its a shitty plan. You can't expect simple things to solve very complex problems.

The Esteemed Gentleman · 10-24-2011, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by DosEquis

I think our wars and some of the spending should be tied directly to taxation. You want to go to Iraq? OK american people its going to cost this much meaning we need to raise this much via taxation, bonds, etc. We have to pony up. Actually declare war via congress like we are supposed to. Things like that.

Def down with this.

Originally Posted by DosEquis

9% sales tax is a disaster, especially in states where (like here) there is already a 7% sales tax in place.

Yeah, I doubt people will like that.

Originally Posted by DosEquis

9% corporate tax is not enough.

Get rid of corporate tax and just tax the income when it's distributed to people. I mean really....people are mad that corporations are treated like people for free speech purposes? Perhaps we should stop treating them as people for income tax purposes.

Originally Posted by DosEquis

You can't expect simple things to solve very complex problems.

I think the tax code is only complicated because we make it complicated and because some people in our country are on a never ending crusade to tax every dollar in every type of transaction come hell or high water. In our never ending quest to tax every last dollar, we create complex schemes to capture them, and then even more complex schemes to recapture income that people have found ways to keep out of the broad definition of "gross income" from "whatever source derived." When you begin with that as your basic operating assumption, you're going to get complexity.

Swift · 10-25-2011, 07:52 AM

[quote=DosEquis;319855]I don't think they support it on either side of the door.
They may not support this exact plan. But I'm sure most of the conservatives want to simplify the tax code.

I think our wars and some of the spending should be tied directly to taxation. You want to go to Iraq? OK american people its going to cost this much meaning we need to raise this much via taxation, bonds, etc. We have to pony up. Actually declare war via congress like we are supposed to. Things like that.

That's a good idea. We should do that for social programs as well.

9% sales tax is a disaster, especially in states where (like here) there is already a 7% sales tax in place.

9% corporate tax is not enough.

9% for the middle class is kind of a wash, 9% for the wealthy is a huge tax break.

Hmm...I believe the point is that the combination of the three is enough.

Overall its a shitty plan. You can't expect simple things to solve very complex problems.

Really? I think we need to simplify the tax code drastically. The current tax code has not helped us with meeting our needs as a country.

WickedLou9 · 10-25-2011, 09:34 AM

My proposal.

no corporate tax.

One progressive tax system where all income is treated the same. If you get money it's income. whether from capital gains, dividends, interest, rental income, or regular W-2 income. It's all the same. You divide up the tax base into quintiles. You pay nothing on income in lowest 5th. segment 2 you pay 5%, segment 3 you pay 15, segment 4 you pay 25, and segment 5 you pay 40%. Done. The higher brackets are to make up for the elimination of corporate taxes. This way the executives earning millions of dollars get taxed more on the money they take from the company which was never taxed at all. If they want to leave money in the company to avoid those taxes, they can do that and put it to more productive use.

I would have only two deductions for this. All education spending is a tax credit. Charitable giving is still a deduction. no more mortgage deduction. No more tax credits for having kids or spending money on insulation for your house.

DosEquis · 10-25-2011, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by The Esteemed Gentleman

I think the tax code is only complicated because we make it complicated and because some people in our country are on a never ending crusade to tax every dollar in every type of transaction come hell or high water. In our never ending quest to tax every last dollar, we create complex schemes to capture them, and then even more complex schemes to recapture income that people have found ways to keep out of the broad definition of "gross income" from "whatever source derived." When you begin with that as your basic operating assumption, you're going to get complexity.

I dunno... i think the complexity comes from people avoiding taxes. The loop holes, deductions, different corporation types, and basically the dozens of ways to approach it..are all intended to avoid paying.

Perry's new plan of 20%, with $12,500 exempt and still allowing mortgage deduction, and thats it... large tax increase on the poors... a wash for middle class..

Swift · 10-25-2011, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by DosEquis

I dunno... i think the complexity comes from people avoiding taxes. The loop holes, deductions, different corporation types, and basically the dozens of ways to approach it..are all intended to avoid paying.

Perry's new plan of 20%, with $12,500 exempt and still allowing mortgage deduction, and thats it... large tax increase on the poors... a wash for middle class..

Honestly, I think the poor need to pay taxes. If not, they'll just keep voting in people that keep them not paying taxes. Regardless of what else they are doing.(for the most part)

Salty Dog · 10-27-2011, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by Swift

Honestly, I think the poor need to pay taxes. If not, they'll just keep voting in people that keep them not paying taxes. Regardless of what else they are doing.(for the most part)

I agree. I would do away with the welfare system in general, but keep in place a pay system for those who do deserve financial aid (college students, out of work parents (depending on circumstances), chronically ill, etc.) While I support legalization of drugs, I would support drug testing for eligibility into the system.

If you're not going to eliminate the IRS, then you have to simplify the tax system. As discussed here and numerous other venues, what creates wasteful spending and negligent finances is a tax system filled with loopholes. When the discussion of class warfare and redistribution of wealth come up, it's all an endless cycle of bullshit when none of that would have a voice if we all concentrated on fixing the tax system.

Donkey® · 10-27-2011, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by Swift

Honestly, I think the poor need to pay taxes. If not, they'll just keep voting in people that keep them not paying taxes. Regardless of what else they are doing.(for the most part)

What are they supposed to pay with? They are POOR. Maybe we should just put them in camps on some island somewhere?

WickedLou9 · 10-27-2011, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

What are they supposed to pay with? They are POOR. Maybe we should just put them in camps on some island somewhere?

Labor camps! force them to earn their welfare checks by digging holes, carrying large rocks around and laying reeds down in front of the wealthy so that they don't damage their Italian leather shoes.

Salty Dog · 10-27-2011, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Labor camps! force them to earn their welfare checks by digging holes, carrying large rocks around and laying reeds down in front of the wealthy so that they don't damage their Italian leather shoes.

How about working a job that requires digging holes and moving rocks for landscaping purposes? They start at 10.00 hour +. The jobs are out there if you look hard enough and actually want to work.

Donkey® · 10-27-2011, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Salty Dog

How about working a job that requires digging holes and moving rocks for landscaping purposes? They start at 10.00 hour +. The jobs are out there if you look hard enough and actually want to work.

You do know that people considered "poor" do have jobs a considerable amount of the time?

Salty Dog · 10-27-2011, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

You do know that people considered "poor" do have jobs a considerable amount of the time?

And getting paid under the table means you don't have to file taxes because you're not on the books. Yeah, I've worked those jobs too. That doesn't mean the system can't be fixed to include every employer or that people you consider poor shouldn't contribute something.

WickedLou9 · 10-28-2011, 09:00 AM

So you are saying that the government should provide jobs for unemployed people and pay them directly?

notquiteright · 10-28-2011, 12:46 PM

Perhaps we could set up a system like Tsarist Russia used where serfs could pay with labor for the right to live in abject poverty. That is in addition to their other job(s) for a feudal lord.

I don't think our complex tax system is caused by someone attempting to tax everything that moves. More like an entire sector of our economy making a good living preparing taxes, figuring ways to avoid paying taxes, and new ways to 'safely' pass wealth from one generation to another.

Like healthcare, so many are invested in maintaining the Gordian Knot I wonder if any real progress can be made.