Amnesty for Illegals post 2006 Election?

[7960]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Americanized their names...thats why they hang italian flags inside their house and almost all their last names end in a vowel

Still in many places there are "italian restaurants" and "Joe's Italian Pizza Shop"

what a bunch of BS

Italians are more annoying about being Italian than any Mexican I've ever met, and Italians have been here a lot longer

this is completely ignorant....... yes, a significant amount of ORIGINAL FOBs from italy either changed their names or had them changed when they hit ellis island. They're proud of their italian heritage but they also demand their kids learn and speak english, unlike a significant amount of mexicans.

"italian restaurant" and "italian pizza shop" define the type of food served...it's no different than having a sign "chief wok chinese food". "Chinese" is not there because they're proud of their heritage, it's so you know it's chinese food...... wft kind of comment was that.

My first choice woudl be to live in a group of people who want to assimilate, want to learn english, want to contribute, want their children to do the same. I don't care if the group that fits that description is of mexican or italian hertiage but I know in my experience italian fits that much more often and to a higher degree than mexican.

[Thorgrim]

ok so there's no factual assertion here, just 'stuff i heard'

There are many people in this country that are 100% italian, they don't intermarry with other catholics etc

Give hispanics a few generations and they'll be fine, don't judge 1st generation immigrants, that's a standard we didn't hold the italians to

however, you did bring up asians, talk about people who don't immigrate, everytime I go to chinatown in Philly it's a hunt to find someone who speaks english

As someone who works in the DA's office, i can tell you they are very aware there is a large chinese criminal organization in China Town, however because of the extreme lack of co-operation and chinese police officers, they basically have given up on trying to even attack it, they almost have their own autonomous state inside Philadelphia

[7960]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

ok so there's no factual assertion here, just 'stuff i heard'

that's what all of this is, but it's not "stuff I heard" it's "stuff I've *seen*"

There are many people in this country that are 100% italian, they don't intermarry with other catholics etc

and there are many who do

Give hispanics a few generations and they'll be fine, don't judge 1st generation immigrants, that's a standard we didn't hold the italians to

you're saying italians weren't persecuted when they first got here?

But they found their niche and got to work and didn't ask for handouts. That's how they earned respect, that's how they became american. I don't ever recall seeing an italian out of work, standing around, asking for handouts. I see way too many hispanics doing exactly that.

however, you did bring up asians, talk about people who don't immigrate, everytime I go to chinatown in Philly it's a hunt to find someone who speaks english

As someone who works in the DA's office, i can tell you they are very aware there is a large chinese criminal organization in China Town, however because of the extreme lack of co-operation and chinese police officers, they basically have given up on trying to even attack it, they almost have their own autonomous state inside Philadelphia

so now you're talking about "just 'stuff i heard'."? Don't come down on me for it and then do the same thing yourself.

[Thorgrim]

why not?

anyway, hispanics for handouts...give me a break, there's a reason their are crowds of them outside every home depot, and its not because they are "looking for handouts" they are earning their way in just like everyone else, just like the italians did

sure, a lot of people are going to think they are living off the charity of americans and don't deserve a chance, but americans have said that about every american immigrant group except the english

[DosEquis]

I have no problem with people immigrating and those that do want to work are the best kind. It comes down to a respect for our laws and a fundamental respect for our country by following those laws.

The border also needs to be secured due to possible threats facing our country. Not only do we need to make sure the people coming here legally to be a citizen is a reputable person, but we need to make sure the bad guys stay out. Whether its terrorism or drugs. Mexican weed sucks anyway.

I dont understand what about "illegal" is so f-ing confusing. Sure they are coming here to put food on their family, but they are doing it illegally. If i stole food from the walmart I wouldn't get a pass because i was feeding my family. It is illegal. period. They need a full sized, fully funded fence. They need to punish employers for hiring the illegal immigrants. They need to refuse to give illegals drivers licenses...why they got them in the first place is beyond me. We don't need a mass round up gestapo, but as those who are here illegally are found they need to be sent back. No amnesty. No free pass for those who come here ILLEGAL. They broke our laws, disrespected our laws, disrespected those who followed the process like they should, and now we are talking of giving them a free pass. Unacceptable.

[AVengeance]

Originally Posted by Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

My how the worm turns when the demonrats play.
It will get much worse before it ever gets better.

demonrats = democrats? Don't put this all on the democrats. The republicans have had a president and congressional control for years, and have done nothing. You are right about one thing: this nation will be weakened from the inside- like an apple rotting from the core, until the only way out is for us to give up our soveriegnty and accept UN control.

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Americanized their names...thats why they hang italian flags inside their house and almost all their last names end in a vowel

Still in many places there are "italian restaurants" and "Joe's Italian Pizza Shop"

what a bunch of BS

Italians are more annoying about being Italian than any Mexican I've ever met, and Italians have been here a lot longer

Come to East LA, and then you'll realize how assinine that is.

Believe me...it isn't nearly as bad as the lack of assimilation of Mexicans.

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

why not?

anyway, hispanics for handouts...give me a break, there's a reason their are crowds of them outside every home depot, and its not because they are "looking for handouts" they are earning their way in just like everyone else, just like the italians did

sure, a lot of people are going to think they are living off the charity of americans and don't deserve a chance, but americans have said that about every american immigrant group except the english

No. They have milked the system in California. They are outside Home Depot, and they don't pay taxes. They violate Housing codes stuffing people into a Single family Home like sardines.

While the average Californian family has to rely on two incomes to make it, and put kids in day care, the illegal immigrant Mexican family has women who all mostly stay home, get free food, and formula from WIC, free healthcare, free education, and then their men, who they tell the gov't went back to mexico without them, get paid under the table and don't pay into the system. OH, and not only that, when an illegal get's an Ow-ie, they go to their local ER and get free medical treatment. OH! And if they can't get their car smogged, then the state of California will pay for it. OH! and not only that, the kids get specialized education, and newer schools since their areas are so shitty that they live in.

These folks are SET UP here, and they dont even have to learn English.

Thanks Bush and Dems! You legalize this what is the count? 12 Million? Legalize them, and more will come. And then ya'll that aren't in Cali, AZ, or NM, you guys will know what we've been bitching about for 20 years.

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by DosEquis

I have no problem with people immigrating and those that do want to work are the best kind. It comes down to a respect for our laws and a fundamental respect for our country by following those laws.

The border also needs to be secured due to possible threats facing our country. Not only do we need to make sure the people coming here legally to be a citizen is a reputable person, but we need to make sure the bad guys stay out. Whether its terrorism or drugs. Mexican weed sucks anyway.

I dont understand what about "illegal" is so f-ing confusing. Sure they are coming here to put food on their family, but they are doing it illegally. If i stole food from the walmart I wouldn't get a pass because i was feeding my family. It is illegal. period. They need a full sized, fully funded fence. They need to punish employers for hiring the illegal immigrants. They need to refuse to give illegals drivers licenses...why they got them in the first place is beyond me. We don't need a mass round up gestapo, but as those who are here illegally are found they need to be sent back. No amnesty. No free pass for those who come here ILLEGAL. They broke our laws, disrespected our laws, disrespected those who followed the process like they should, and now we are talking of giving them a free pass. Unacceptable.

M-F*ing :WERD:

[Thorgrim]

they can't pay taxes because you call them felons

and i love the argument of "lets not round them up gestapo style or anything...lets just...deport them...somehow"

and then ofcourse, the principle argument "oh well they broke the law!" yeah im sure if you lived in Mexico you wouldn't climb a fence to come into the US

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

I don't know why everyone assumes the Democrats stand to gain long term from amnesty. I can easily picture 100 years from now, hispanics have completely assimilated, they're very family oriented, very religious, entrepreneurial and a Karl Rove type manages to sway them all to the Republican party because of social conservatism and low taxes.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

I don't know why everyone assumes the Democrats stand to gain long term from amnesty. I can easily picture 100 years from now, hispanics have completely assimilated, they're very family oriented, very religious, entrepreneurial and a Karl Rove type manages to sway them all to the Republican party because of social conservatism and low taxes.

Republicans have been trying to sway social conservative blacks for years...failure

You want to talk about entrepreneurial and successful groups, look at Jews, who break for Democrats

Blacks don't forget the southern strategy or Katrina

Hispanics won't forget the GOP passing a bill to label their parents as felons, and Democrats coming in to grant their family the ability to stay

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Republicans have been trying to sway social conservative blacks for years...failure

You want to talk about entrepreneurial and successful groups, look at Jews, who break for Democrats

Blacks don't forget the southern strategy or Katrina

Hispanics won't forget the GOP passing a bill to label their parents as felons, and Democrats coming in to grant their family the ability to stay

Yes, but blacks really haven't managed to assimilate into society since slavery, and until that happens, they'll never go the Republican party.

I don't see Mexicans following the same pattern of perpetual disenfranchisement. I can easily see them becoming very successful and getting on par with whites economically and socially in a few generations. When that happens, they very well could go Republican.

As far as Jews, I continue to see them being Democrat no matter what, simply because Jews on average are very well educated.

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

they can't pay taxes because you call them felons

and i love the argument of "lets not round them up gestapo style or anything...lets just...deport them...somehow"

and then ofcourse, the principle argument "oh well they broke the law!" yeah im sure if you lived in Mexico you wouldn't climb a fence to come into the US

They can't pay taxes because they aren't citizens.

And, actually, I can point to the neighborhoods they are at, they are in front Home Depot 7 days a week, they aren't that hard to spot in So Cal. If you get stopped for traffic, and don't have ID, and you can't be looked up in the system, Buh-Bye back to Me-hi-co.

And this "If you lived in Mexico, you'd climb the fence too..." Two wrongs don't make a right. We don't live in mexico, and not everything needs to be our problem.

[Kytro]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

And this "If you lived in Mexico, you'd climb the fence too..." Two wrongs don't make a right. We don't live in mexico, and not everything needs to be our problem.

Maybe they don't believe it is wrong.

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Democrats will capture the Hispanic vote for the next 100 years if they play this right, yes, with earned citizenship

When it gets down to it, these guys are just as hard-working and moral as Italians were...sure they couldn't speak english and were in the mafia etc, but they assimilate, even if they constantly have their st columbus parades and italian flags...

Yes they will flood the country with illegals for the vote. The criminal element and their victims be damned. LA County jails are full of your hard workers. That is why we need a well gated guest worker program and no easy path to citizenship. Makes me feel so warm inside your party does! Not that mine is much better on the issue. I just wonder how many of these people are in or near your neighborhood because the touchy feel of your second paragraph does not sound like you have had the real world experiance? I know a number of hispanic citizens, including family and friends, who won't buy that crap in those talking points! They can come in the same way those Italians did. There is a process and a waiting line!

[RMNIXON]

Testimony
April 13, 2005

Immigration and the Alien Gang Epidemic: Problems and Solutions
Testimony of Heather Mac Donald, Senior Fellow, Manhattan Institute for Policy Research, before the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Immigration, Border Security, and Claims
My name is Heather Mac Donald. I am a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research, a think tank in New York City. I have analyzed illegal immigration for City Journal and the Los Angeles Times, among other publications. I have also written a book on policing called Are Cops Racist? I appreciate the opportunity to testify today on this important topic.
Sanctuary laws are a serious impediment to stemming gang violence and other crime. Moreover, they are a perfect symbol of this country’s topsy-turvy stance towards illegal immigration.

Sanctuary laws, present in such cities as Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, Austin, Houston, and San Francisco, generally forbid local police officers from inquiring into a suspect’s immigration status or reporting it to federal authorities. Such laws place a higher priority on protecting illegal aliens from deportation than on protecting legal immigrants and citizens from assault, rape, arson, and other crimes.

Let’s say a Los Angeles police officer sees a member of Mara Salvatrucha hanging out at Hollywood and Vine. The gang member has previously been deported for aggravated assault; his mere presence back in the country following deportation is a federal felony. Under the prevailing understanding of Los Angeles’s sanctuary law (special order 40), if that officer merely inquires into the gangbanger’s immigration status, the officer will face departmental punishment.

To get the felon off the street, the cop has to wait until he has probable cause to arrest the gangbanger for a non-immigration crime, such as murder or robbery. It is by no means certain that that officer will successfully build a non-immigrant case against the gangster, however, since witnesses to gang crime often fear deadly retaliation if they cooperate with the police. Meanwhile, the gangbanger is free to prey on law-abiding members of his community, many of them immigrants themselves.

This is an extraordinarily inefficient way to reduce crime. If an officer has grounds for arresting a criminal now, it is perverse to ask him to wait until some later date when maybe, if he is lucky, he will have an additional ground for arrest.

Sanctuary laws violate everything we have learned about policing in the 1990s. Police departments across the country discovered that utilizing every law enforcement tool in their tool chest against criminals yielded enormous gains. Getting criminals off the streets for seemingly “minor” crimes such as turnstile jumping or graffiti saved lives. Gang crime, which exploded 50% from 1999 to 2002, is too serious a problem to ignore this lesson.
No one knows for certain the percentage of illegals in gangs, thanks in large part to sanctuary laws themselves. But various estimates exist:

--A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations. It commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County. The gang has grown dramatically over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, most of them illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

--Immigration and Customs Enforcement conservatively puts the number of illegals in Mara Salvatrucha as a “majority;” police officers, by contrast, assert that the gang is overwhelmingly illegal.

--Law enforcement officials estimate that 20% of gang members in San Diego County are illegal, according to the Union-Tribune.

-- The L.A. County Sheriff reported in 2000 that 23% of inmates in county jails were deportable, according to the New York Times.

--The leadership of the Columbia Lil’ Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around Los Angeles’s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002. Francisco Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and an illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.

-- In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide in the first half of 2004 (which totaled 1,200 to 1,500) targeted illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) were for illegal aliens.

--The Los Angeles Police Department arrests about 2500 criminally-convicted deportees annually, reports the Los Angeles Times.
Though the numbers of illegal gang members remain elusive, the evidence for the destructive effects of sanctuary laws is incontrovertible. In 2002, for example, four illegal Mexicans, accompanied by one legal immigrant, abducted and brutally raped a 42-year-old mother of two near some railroad tracks in Queens, New York. The New York Police Department had already arrested three of the illegal aliens numerous times for such crimes as assault, attempted robbery, criminal trespass, illegal gun possession, and drug offenses. But pursuant to New York’s sanctuary policy, the department had never notified the INS.

Five months ago, Carlos Barrera, an illegal Mexican in Hollywood, Ca., mugged three people, burglarized two apartments, and tried to rape a five-year-old girl. Barrera had been deported four years ago after serving time for robbery, drugs, and burglary. Since his reentry following deportation, he had been stopped twice for traffic violations. But thanks to special order 40, the police had never mentioned him to the immigration authorities, reports the New York Times.

In September, 2003, the Miami police arrested a Honduran visa violator for seven vicious rapes. The previous year, Miami cops had had the suspect in custody for lewd and lascivious molestation. Pursuant to Miami’s sanctuary law, however, the police had never checked his immigration status. Had they done so, they would have discovered his deportable status, and could have forestalled the rapes.

Cousins Aneceto and Jaime Reyes committed murder and a car-jacking, respectively, after returning to Los Angeles from Mexico following deportation. The Los Angeles police had encountered them before these most recent crimes, but had to wait for them to commit murder and a car-jacking before they could lay a finger on them for their immigration offenses, according to the New York Times.

The Los Angeles Police Department began revisiting special order 40 last month. Its proposed revision merely underlines how perverse our attitudes towards illegal alien criminals remain.

Los Angeles’s top brass propose to allow a Los Angeles officer who suspects that a criminal has previously been deported to contact his supervisor about the reentry felony. That supervisor would then contact ICE. ICE officials would next go before a federal judge to get an arrest warrant for the immigration felony. Then, with warrant in hand, the Los Angeles cop may finally arrest the felonious gangbanger—if he can still find him.

This burdensome procedure is preposterous. To arrest an American citizen for a crime, arrest warrants are rarely required; about 95% of arrests of citizens are warrantless. But in L.A., under the new rules, illegal criminals will have due process rights that citizens can only dream of: not just judicial review before they can be taken off the streets, but federal judicial review—the gold standard of all constitutional protections. Maybe home-grown criminals should renounce their citizenship and reenter the country illegally. It would be a constitutional windfall for them.

Other jurisdictions that are reconsidering their sanctuary laws are also proceeding with unnecessary timidity. The Orange County, Ca., sheriff plans to train a few deputies to use immigration laws only for special enforcement actions against sexual predators or gangs, reports the Los Angeles Times. The Miami Police Department will join with ICE only on high-level gang cases.
These minor tinkerings all put unwise limitations on a vital law enforcement power. Local immigration enforcement power should not be limited to the felony of reentry following deportation. Nor should only a small subset of officers be authorized to use it. There are many illegal alien criminals who have not yet reentered following deportation, but who are just as dangerous to their communities. Every officer should have the power to enforce any immigration violation against a criminal suspect, not just immigration felonies.
Nothing demonstrates the necessity of this power better than ICE’s March enforcement action against Mara Salvatrucha. Following the March round-up, ICE proudly displayed three of its trophy cases: the founding member of MS-13 in Hollywood, Ca., who had already been convicted for robbery and possession of a dangerous weapon; the leader of MS-13 in Long Branch, NJ, who had a prior criminal history of aggravated arson, weapons possession, grand larceny, and criminal possession of stolen property; and the founder of Port Washington, NY’s, MS gang, who had a prior drug conviction.
ICE got all three of these leading gang bangers off the streets through what it calls administrative immigration violations, not felony immigration violations. Local officers in Hollywood, Long Branch, and Port Washington, as elsewhere, should have the power to use any type of immigration violation as well to get a thug (who may also prove to be a terrorist) off the street.
Immigration enforcement against criminals should also not wait upon a major federal-local gang initiative. The majority of opportunities to get criminals off the streets come from enforcing misdemeanors and quality of life offenses. While the police are waiting to make a major federal case against an illegal criminal, they are far more likely to have picked him up for a “petty” theft or an open-container offense. Officers should be empowered at every arrest or lawful stop to check someone’s immigration status. If a suspect is committing an immigration offense, the officer should be empowered to arrest him immediately for that offense.

Jails and prisons should routinely check the immigration status of their prisoners. Such an initiative should not be dependent on the presence of an ICE officer stationed in a prison; there are simply not enough federal agents available to cover the relevant facilities. Moreover, ICE agents do not routinely visit local jails where misdemeanor offenders are held, yet those offenders may be as dangerous to the community as someone against whom a felony case has been made. Someone convicted of stealing a jacket today may be shooting a rival tomorrow. And many misdemeanor convicts in jails have been allowed to plead down from more serious felonies.

The standard argument for sanctuary laws is that they encourage illegal aliens to work with the police or seek government services. This argument is based on myth, not evidence. No illegal alien advocate has ever provided a shred of evidence that sanctuary laws actually accomplish their alleged ends. Nor has anyone shown that illegal aliens are even aware of sanctuary laws. The evidence for the destructive effects of sanctuary laws is clear, however.

The idea that sanctuary laws are “pro-immigrant” is perhaps the greatest myth of all. Keeping illegal criminals in the community subjects all immigrants to the thrall of crime and impedes economic growth in immigrant communities.

Obviously, the final prerequisite for ridding immigrant communities of illegal thugs is enough ICE detention space and deportation resources. But providing police officers with every lawful tool to fight crime is a crucial first step to protecting immigrant lives and should be the unanimous recommendation of the Subcommittee.

[DosEquis]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

they can't pay taxes because you call them felons

and i love the argument of "lets not round them up gestapo style or anything...lets just...deport them...somehow"

It is quite simple to send them back without going door to door like hitler goes after jews. When they come to the hospital after breaking their arm landscaping, verify their citizenship along with their insurance (or lack of) and if they can't prove their citizenship they call the police. The police come and pick them up and verify they are illegal or not. If they are, put them in holding until there is a bus full and send them back.

If employers get applications from people that can't prove their citizenship they can turn them in to the authorities, and rinse and repeat. Hell, give them some motivation like $1000 tax credit for every illegal that results in deportation.

and then ofcourse, the principle argument "oh well they broke the law!" yeah im sure if you lived in Mexico you wouldn't climb a fence to come into the US

what is that? Is that really a defense of this amnesty program? What is more frightening is you are taking a side with George Bush

[Thorgrim]

Oh yeah, I'm ready to trust Officer Barney with establishing whether a mother should be sent back over the border without her kid...thats not a huge disaster waiting to happen x20 million

[Kytro]

I have no issues with deportation, but specific examples of crimes by illegals isn't evidence that illegals are more likely to commit dangerous crimes