Trayvon Martin Shooting

[The Esteemed Gentleman]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

At least arrest him, convene the grand jury and let people testify to what they saw. Let Zimmerman get in court to tell his version. None of that happened. That's where the outrage is coming from...although a lot of it is misplaced.

Well, the more that comes out, the worse this looks for Zimmerman. In most of the above posts, I was trying to play devil's advocate for him because it seemed like everyone was crucifying him (which they were). But the deck is looking pretty stacked against him. As Marcia Clark (OJ prosecutor) noted on CNN with Anderson Cooper last night, the cops weren't wearing gloves or any other protective medical gear when handling Zimmerman in that video, and generally broken noses and lacerations to the head bleed profusely. None of that is apparent in the video. (Doesn't mean it didn't happen previously, but....) I thought that was a very good point.

So, speaking of misplaced anger, I give you Spike Lee as exhibit 1. As Jon Stewart noted last night on the Daily Show, not only are the people who Lee put in danger absolutely adorable, the "mistake" here isn't that he tweeted a mistaken address, but that he tweeted what he thought was Zimmerman's address in the first place. It's a case of the same type of vigilante justice mentality that Lee and other claim is the reason Martin is dead to begin with. It's a very good point and the fact that people don't see the irony in that is disturbing. After all, a lynch mob is a lynch mob, regardless of who they are lynching. As you put very well, "arrest him, convene the grand jury and let people testify to what they saw. Let Zimmerman get in court to tell his version."

PS: Another good point here no one has addressed yet (except the panel Marcia Clark was on last night): With the media circus around this case, two things are apparent. First, it is going to be extremely difficult to sit an unbiased jury for this case. Second, with all the media interviews of alleged witnesses, and the fact that witnesses always tell their stories differently each time they retell them, any trial is going to be a field day for a good criminal defense attorney. I think that's spot on. Further, I bet Zimmerman could get a really good attorney, at little or no cost. Why? A case like this, with all its publicity, is a lawyer's dream for advertising. And imagine if the lawyer gets Zimmerman off? That lawyer would be the most sought after defense lawyer in all of Florida. I think this case is going to get much more interesting as it progresses.

[kinggovernor]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

I've been debating this on right wing forums since it happened. No, I don't think the guy is racist..white...latino or whatever. I think he's an idiot.

Here are the actual "facts" I judge this case by:

1: This guy is an idiot. He's called police 40 or so times over the years while he's doing his neighborhood watch. Sounds stupid to me.

2: People seem to think this kid at 6'3" is some kind of MMA expert...doubtful. He's at most 150 pounds. That is SKINNY.

3: Zimmerman was asked to stay in the car by the dispatcher...he refused. What happened when he got out of the car is in dispute as there are no reliable witnesses that saw everything. He claims he lost sight of the kid, got out to find him, then started walking back to his car. At that point he was attacked. Funny, because Trayvon ran from him (that's how he lost sight) and all of a sudden he's going to come back and attack him? Possible...but again...one side that can't really be confirmed. Maybe he got punched...maybe he fell on the grass and hit the back of his head...maybe he punched himself...maybe Trayvon hit him...only Zimmerman knows. The bottom line, he got out of the car and it turned from "watching" with a decent case for self defense if attacked, to pursuing the kid (who wasn't doing a thing wrong btw) to a point where it ended in a confrontation and the kid was shot.

4: The kid was on the phone with his girlfriend up to 1 minute before he was killed. The way Zimmerman tells it...compared to the story of the girlfriend...it doesn't jive. He ran from Zimmerman and less than a minute later...while on the phone with the girlfriend...he decides to go back and attack? Doesn't make sense.

5: In the end, this was an altercation. A fight between a grown man who was playing cop and a skinny kid who had every right to defend himself as well. If this fight was outside of a bar, Zimmerman would be going to jail. End of story. He's not in jail...wasn't arrested...and the police have bungled this from the get go. People should be outraged.

6: The Police were so incompetent, the kids body wasn't claimed for 3 days.

7: Zimmerman wasn't even on Neighborhood Watch at the time. He was going to the store. On top of that, NATIONAL Neighborhood Watch guidelines specifically state not to carry weapons.

8: Zimmerman is at the least guilty of manslaughter.

I agree with all of this.


Futhermore, Zimmerman lied to the police on scene about his arrest record. He also told them a completely bullshit story about how the altercation started. He stated that was driving around looking for Martin and got lost in his own "gated community", so he got out of his car to check the street signs and then Martin attacked him from behind.

I believe Zimmerman will be charged with manslaughter by the grand jury shortly, I'm not sure if there was a hate crime committed.

[The Esteemed Gentleman]

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

He stated that was driving around looking for Martin and got lost in his own "gated community", so he got out of his car to check the street signs and then Martin attacked him from behind.

Had not heard that version yet. Where did you get the info? Any links?

[kinggovernor]

Originally Posted by The Esteemed Gentleman

Had not heard that version yet. Where did you get the info? Any links?

Justice Department said Monday it will investigate the slaying of Sanford, Fla., teenager Trayvon Martin, by a Neighborhood Watch volunteer.

Martin, 17, a student at Michael Krop Senior High School, was on suspension from school and had been staying at his father's girlfriend's house when he was killed Feb. 26, after walking to a convenience store and buying a can of ice tea and a bag of candy. The volunteer, George Zimmerman, 28, was known to police for having reported anything from open garage doors to so-called suspicious characters, The Miami Herald reported.

Police said Zimmerman told them he got out of his vehicle to get a look at a street sign, and Martin attacked him from behind. Zimmerman said he shot Martin because he was afraid for his life.



Read more: U.S. to investigate killing of Fla. teen - UPI.com

I'm surprised it hasn't created more of a fury, it is an obvious lie.

[Donkey®]

I edited my first case opinion to fix things that have been later discovered. But my new complete scenario is as follows:


Zimmerman sees Martin and for some reason calls 911.
911 tells him to not follow.
Martin sees Zimmerman and decides to either run or walk away fast (his gf, who was on the phone said that Martin says "I am not running, I'll walk fast.")
Zimmerman says "he's running...at which point he gets out of his car. To me, that signals he's going to give chase and confront Martin.
At some point, the GF says Zimmerman cornered Martin and she heard a shove...that's when I think the fight started.
At some point during the fight, a witness sees Martin on top of Zimmerman, beating him. That witness takes his eye off them after telling them to stop...goes upstairs and calls police.
Another witness...boy walking his dog...hears the noise and sees only Zimmerman on the ground on his back. He loses his dog and goes after him. Shortly after, the shot is heard.
The man who told them to stop now looks out the window and sees Zimmerman over a dead Martin.

Zimmerman claims that he got out, looked around then was walking back to the car when he was attacked.

When taken with the totality of the evidence, I just don't see a case of self defense.

I think Zimmerman chased down Martin...he caught him...Martin defended himself (he has a right to self defense too ya know) and eventually got the best of Zimmerman. He stopped, got off Zimmerman (the dog boy saw Zimmerman on the ground alone) and I think he was backing away when Zimmerman decided to shoot him. That's how I see it as of now.

[The Great Catpiss]

I agree that's probably much of what happened.

Once you get in a scuffle, you will likely need to defend yourself. If you attack someone and they fight back, you will probably need to defend yourself. I assume that at some point both people were defending themselves.

There are two questions that I think the investigators need to answer:
1. Did Zimmerman purposely instigate a fight?
2. Who was the first person to physically assault and/or battery?

[The Esteemed Gentleman]

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

I'm surprised it hasn't created more of a fury, it is an obvious lie.

He called the police because peoples' garage doors were open?

This dude isn't racist; he's just damn crazy!

[Salty Dog]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

I edited my first case opinion to fix things that have been later discovered. But my new complete scenario is as follows:


Zimmerman sees Martin and for some reason calls 911.
911 tells him to not follow.
Martin sees Zimmerman and decides to either run or walk away fast (his gf, who was on the phone said that Martin says "I am not running, I'll walk fast.")
Zimmerman says "he's running...at which point he gets out of his car. To me, that signals he's going to give chase and confront Martin.
At some point, the GF says Zimmerman cornered Martin and she heard a shove...that's when I think the fight started.
At some point during the fight, a witness sees Martin on top of Zimmerman, beating him. That witness takes his eye off them after telling them to stop...goes upstairs and calls police.
Another witness...boy walking his dog...hears the noise and sees only Zimmerman on the ground on his back. He loses his dog and goes after him. Shortly after, the shot is heard.
The man who told them to stop now looks out the window and sees Zimmerman over a dead Martin.

Zimmerman claims that he got out, looked around then was walking back to the car when he was attacked.

When taken with the totality of the evidence, I just don't see a case of self defense.

I think Zimmerman chased down Martin...he caught him...Martin defended himself (he has a right to self defense too ya know) and eventually got the best of Zimmerman. He stopped, got off Zimmerman (the dog boy saw Zimmerman on the ground alone) and I think he was backing away when Zimmerman decided to shoot him. That's how I see it as of now.

I think that's a very good description of what likely happened, based on what we know right now.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by The Esteemed Gentleman

He called the police because peoples' garage doors were open?

This dude isn't racist; he's just damn crazy!

He called police for a pothole as well.

There is dispute though regarding these calls. It was claimed that the call center that takes the calls, takes both emergency and non emergency calls. But nobody could back up that statement.

[Salty Dog]

Originally Posted by The Esteemed Gentleman

So, speaking of misplaced anger, I give you Spike Lee as exhibit 1. As Jon Stewart noted last night on the Daily Show, not only are the people who Lee put in danger absolutely adorable, the "mistake" here isn't that he tweeted a mistaken address, but that he tweeted what he thought was Zimmerman's address in the first place. It's a case of the same type of vigilante justice mentality that Lee and other claim is the reason Martin is dead to begin with. It's a very good point and the fact that people don't see the irony in that is disturbing. After all, a lynch mob is a lynch mob, regardless of who they are lynching. As you put very well, "arrest him, convene the grand jury and let people testify to what they saw. Let Zimmerman get in court to tell his version."

I don't understand why Spike Lee is so well respected by the mainstream. He made Do The Right Thing. A decent flick, at best. He's court side at every Knicks game. So what? Time and time again, he's proven to be a loud mouth who usually says the wrong thing and victimizes people at his own expense.

I mean, if Rush Limbaugh is a dope for what he does, surely when Spike Lee does something like this and gets rightfully condemned for it, rational minded people will say enough is enough and shut the fuck up already (to both sides of aisle).

[The Great Catpiss]

Originally Posted by Salty Dog

I don't understand why Spike Lee is so well respected by the mainstream. He made Do The Right Thing. A decent flick, at best. He's court side at every Knicks game. So what? Time and time again, he's proven to be a loud mouth who usually says the wrong thing and victimizes people at his own expense.

I mean, if Rush Limbaugh is a dope for what he does, surely when Spike Lee does something like this and gets rightfully condemned for it, rational minded people will say enough is enough and shut the fuck up already (to both sides of aisle).

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by The Great Catpiss

Pal'in around with extremists!!!!

[Salty Dog]

Originally Posted by The Great Catpiss

I'm glad you posted that because I was thinking about this exact photo op when I wrote my last response. No matter what the person says or stands for, in the end it's all about the money they will hand you for an election. And I give you the American political fuckbeast: a bastardized, rabid parasite of a creature who rapes any thought of the word "liberty" away from its citizens until there's nothing but a neo-fascist corporate kingdom cloaked under the geise of democracy.

[The Great Catpiss]

Originally Posted by Salty Dog

I'm glad you posted that because I was thinking about this exact photo op when I wrote my last response. No matter what the person says or stands for, in the end it's all about the money they will hand you for an election. And I give you the American political fuckbeast: a bastardized, rabid parasite of a creature who rapes any thought of the word "liberty" away from its citizens until there's nothing but a neo-fascist corporate kingdom cloaked under the geise of democracy.

I actually searched for a Spike Lee / Michael Jordan picture. Those really boosted his popularity. In doing so, I found this picture. The shoes are Jordans.

[Salty Dog]

Originally Posted by The Great Catpiss

I actually searched for a Spike Lee / Michael Jordan picture. Those really boosted his popularity. In doing so, I found this picture. The shoes are Jordans.

In several ways, this is far more stupid and obviously dangerous than what Limbaugh did. I don't recall Limbaugh advocating violence toward that woman who testified. He attacked her character and what she represented, not asking for her head to be delivered by all means necessary. I guess because Spike tweeted this to his "weeble-minded internet stalkers" instead of on a radio show that influences the "weeble minds of white America," I can see the difference. But not really and if there is such thing as a liberal media bias, there it is for all to see.

[The Esteemed Gentleman]

So, ABC News had a video analysis firm check out and enhance the police station video of Zimmerman's head. It clearly shows cuts, bruises, and swelling on the back of his head that (a) wasn't visible in the first video and (b) seems to substantiate certain elements of Zimmerman's claim. However, as the article notes, the video still doesn't show any signs of blood, bruises, etc., around Zimmerman's nose or shirt.

This new evidence still doesn't mean he was justified in shooting Martin (or that he wasn't), but it's clearer evidence that perhaps Zimmerman isn't/wasn't lying to police regarding the physical struggle he and Martin engaged in.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by The Esteemed Gentleman

So, ABC News had a video analysis firm check out and enhance the police station video of Zimmerman's head. It clearly shows cuts, bruises, and swelling on the back of his head that (a) wasn't visible in the first video and (b) seems to substantiate certain elements of Zimmerman's claim. However, as the article notes, the video still doesn't show any signs of blood, bruises, etc., around Zimmerman's nose or shirt.

This new evidence still doesn't mean he was justified in shooting Martin (or that he wasn't), but it's clearer evidence that perhaps Zimmerman isn't/wasn't lying to police regarding the physical struggle he and Martin engaged in.

Yeah, it's more than possible Zimmerman was bruised and bleeding. The reason that's ok though is because he (in my opinion) more than likely started the physical altercation. Trayvon Martin was the one exercising his right to self defense. He was doing nothing wrong and he was followed and harassed by this idiot who has a penchant for being a moron and an overzealous freak whenever he steps foot outside his door.

[The Esteemed Gentleman]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Yeah, it's more than possible Zimmerman was bruised and bleeding. The reason that's ok though is because he (in my opinion) more than likely started the physical altercation. Trayvon Martin was the one exercising his right to self defense. He was doing nothing wrong and he was followed and harassed by this idiot who has a penchant for being a moron and an overzealous freak whenever he steps foot outside his door.

Maybe that's all true. But the law of self-defense only allows someone to resist unlawful force with an appropriate amount of force. (This is true even under Florida's stand your ground law.) So if Zimmerman didn't initiate any physical intrusion onto the person of Martin, Martin was not in any way justified in using self-defense of any kind. Assuming that Zimmerman did initiate a physical intrusion against Martin, Martin would be allowed to use only that force necessary to defend himself. Not even the Florida law allows you to just kill somebody just because you are in a fight. (Ditto re: Zimmerman.) But, if it is true that Martin started slamming the back of Zimmerman's head into concrete (which is an act that, you'd agree, could kill) or saw Zimmerman's gun and went for it (which is an act that, you'd agree, would escalate the fight into a deadly one), then Zimmerman would likely be justified in using the weapon.

Now, that all makes a lot of assumptions, none of which could be true. For all we know Zimmerman could have been the one pounding and pistol-whipping Martin, and that's why Martin began slamming Zimmerman's head into the ground and going for the gun. But my point is that just because Zimmerman might have followed Martin, approached him against police wishes, or even started a pushing match with him, doesn't mean he wasn't justified in shooting him if, in fact, Martin began to use (or initiated) disproportionate force in the altercation.

It'd be like if Zimmerman started a pushing match, and in "defense" Martin pulled out a knife and Zimmerman couldn't get away cause Martin slash his leg. Zimmerman would be justified in using deadly force at that point, even though he essentially started the fight. Same rule applies here, except that instead of a knife, Martin started bashing his head into the ground and might have gone for Zimmerman's holstered gun.

Still, most evidence like that comes out at a trial with testimony, so the DA still should probably have arrested Zimmerman in the first place.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by The Esteemed Gentleman

Maybe that's all true. But the law of self-defense only allows someone to resist unlawful force with an appropriate amount of force. (This is true even under Florida's stand your ground law.) So if Zimmerman didn't initiate any physical intrusion onto the person of Martin, Martin was not in any way justified in using self-defense of any kind. Assuming that Zimmerman did initiate a physical intrusion against Martin, Martin would be allowed to use only that force necessary to defend himself. Not even the Florida law allows you to just kill somebody just because you are in a fight. (Ditto re: Zimmerman.) But, if it is true that Martin started slamming the back of Zimmerman's head into concrete (which is an act that, you'd agree, could kill) or saw Zimmerman's gun and went for it (which is an act that, you'd agree, would escalate the fight into a deadly one), then Zimmerman would likely be justified in using the weapon.

Now, that all makes a lot of assumptions, none of which could be true. For all we know Zimmerman could have been the one pounding and pistol-whipping Martin, and that's why Martin began slamming Zimmerman's head into the ground and going for the gun. But my point is that just because Zimmerman might have followed Martin, approached him against police wishes, or even started a pushing match with him, doesn't mean he wasn't justified in shooting him if, in fact, Martin began to use (or initiated) disproportionate force in the altercation.

It'd be like if Zimmerman started a pushing match, and in "defense" Martin pulled out a knife and Zimmerman couldn't get away cause Martin slash his leg. Zimmerman would be justified in using deadly force at that point, even though he essentially started the fight. Same rule applies here, except that instead of a knife, Martin started bashing his head into the ground and might have gone for Zimmerman's holstered gun.

Still, most evidence like that comes out at a trial with testimony, so the DA still should probably have arrested Zimmerman in the first place.

There is a witness that saw Zimmerman on the ground getting beat up by Trayvon. There is also a witness that saw Zimmerman on the ground alone at some point. That indicates to me that Trayvon stopped beating him up at some point, stood up and got off of him. Did he leave and come back? Did he just step back away from Zimmerman? That witness definitely shows a point when Zimmerman was on the ground and nobody was on top of him. On top of that, his injuries just don't seem consistent with him being beat up bad enough to justify shooting someone. Trayvon Martin in no way could kill Zimmerman with his fists. (in my opinion) so I think he overreacted and took advantage of Trayvon's lack of killer instinct.

But what doesn't make sense is that it's claimed that Zimmerman had a right to kill Trayvon but Trayvon doesn't have a right to kill Zimmerman? Trayvon was afforded every right to make sure Zimmerman stopped attacking him and he could get away safely.

[kinggovernor]

Originally Posted by The Esteemed Gentleman

So, ABC News had a video analysis firm check out and enhance the police station video of Zimmerman's head. It clearly shows cuts, bruises, and swelling on the back of his head that (a) wasn't visible in the first video and (b) seems to substantiate certain elements of Zimmerman's claim. However, as the article notes, the video still doesn't show any signs of blood, bruises, etc., around Zimmerman's nose or shirt.

This new evidence still doesn't mean he was justified in shooting Martin (or that he wasn't), but it's clearer evidence that perhaps Zimmerman isn't/wasn't lying to police regarding the physical struggle he and Martin engaged in.

The police should have taken photographs of Zimmerman at the police station, they should release those and end this nonsense once and for all.