Trayvon Martin Shooting

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by The Esteemed Gentleman

At the risk of sounding grossly insensitive, I think it's worth pointing out that while it is of course tragic that a young person was killed, I have to ask if we are surprised based on what we know about this young person? He was someone who apparently was prone to violence himself (attacking (presumably) unarmed bus drivers, and apparently initiating force against Zimmerman before Zimmerman shot him) and had a disciplinary record in school that most non-problem youths do not have. So again, while it might sound insensitive (and while it does not excuse Zimmerman's conduct, if ultimately found to be unlawful), I'd be willing to be money that this might have been Martin's fate one way or the other someday, whether he was 17 or 27.

Lot's of assumption up in here...up in here...

Proof he attacked a bus driver? Proof he attacked Zimmerman? Link to Zimmerman's high school records? I mean, that's relevant to Trayvon's...and on top of that, he has had a couple of run in's with the law himself...that his magistrate dad had quietly wiped away. An assault on a police officer and there was a domestic dispute complete with restraining orders.

Their pasts are irrelevant. What happened in that moment on that sidewalk is what counts.

Originally Posted by The Esteemed Gentleman

PS: I should probably add that I won't be too broken up if Zimmerman goes away for the rest of his life either. While I've played devil's advocate for him in this thread, my opinion that he is an asshat hasn't changed much since I first stated the thread. I still think he's a wanna be cop who with poor decision making skills with a gun who killed a kid who beat him down. So I ask myself: "Is this the type of person I want out on the street watching my neighborhood?" Probably not. So, much like I feel it was only a matter of time before Martin found himself on the business end of a gun, I feel too it was only a matter of time before Zimmerman did something stupid with drastic consequences. Calling 911 for potholes? Talk about being high-strung.

I wouldn't be broken up if he's acquitted either...at least he has his day in court.

[The Great Catpiss]

"let me emphasize, we do not prosecute by public pressure"
And the lies begin...
Do they think we are idiots?


Who is this guy that they arrested? He looks 60 lbs lighter than in the other photos. The actual weight difference between Martin and Zimmerman was closer to 10-20 lbs, not the 50-70 lbs that the media wanted people to assume.

Booking photo:

[The Esteemed Gentleman]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Lot's of assumption up in here...up in here...

Well, I don't disagree. After all, I pretty much admitted that I am just willing to bet that this kinda thing would have happened someday; I obviously have no proof of that. It's just the impression I get from what's come out and been reported. He seemed like a typical punk. Why should we be surprised he ended up in a deadly confrontation? I'm not sure we should be.

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Proof he attacked a bus driver?

You'll never have the kind of proof you are looking for. I mean, I could easily ask you "Proof he didn't attack a bus driver?" and you'd come up with nothing. But the remark in my post is based off of Tweets his cousin apparently tweeted him saying something along the lines that the cousin was in amused disbelief that Martin had sucker-punched a bus driver. I assume it's true; why else would his cousin be laughing and asking about it?

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Proof he attacked Zimmerman?

Well, that'll be something for trial. But there is no evidence that Zimmerman initiated force against Martin. The medical examiner made note that Martin did not bear any indication of being in a physical altercation (aside from being shot), while enhanced images of the back of Zimmerman's head from ABC News show that Zimmerman does have (or did, anyway) bruises and swelling from injuries. So it seems more probably than not that Martin started and won the fight and was not struck by Zimmerman (until he got shot of course).

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Link to Zimmerman's high school records...and on top of that, he has had a couple of run in's with the law himself...that his magistrate dad had quietly wiped away. An assault on a police officer and there was a domestic dispute complete with restraining orders.

Well hey, just add that stuff to my list of why I won't be broken up if Zimmerman gets put away. Seems like he had it coming, too.

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Their pasts are irrelevant. What happened in that moment on that sidewalk is what counts.

Well, for the purposes of this trial, sure (for the most part). Character evidence is tough to get into evidence at trial under most circumstances. But speaking generally here on the internet, I think it is appropriate to look at the whole picture of who these two people were and I think an argument can be made that, regarding both of them, society hasn't lost much. Cold and callous? Maybe. That doesn't mean I'm wrong.

[The Great Catpiss]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

He isn't walking anywhere...except after the guy who took his keys. To claim he's trying to get to safety is ridiculous. It's more than obvious he's going after the guy.

It was a $1300 watch. They even said they were grabbing the watch out loud. They also took his iphone, wallet and keys.

[The Great Catpiss]

There's been way too many assumptions. I've been playing devil's advocate as people are stating their own conclusions as facts. As much of the devil's advocate I've been, I've also made my own assumptions...

The most probable scenario in my mind:
Martin attacked Zimmerman. Both Separated, and the gun came out. Martin screamed for his life. Zimmerman was so angry that he pulled the trigger.

I think the 911 call with the scream and the gunshot is the most haunting evidence. Most scenarios that I run in my head all make this look like murder. Other possible evidence will be GPS locations that may discredit something Zimmerman said. Also the bullet entry angle may be key.

[The Esteemed Gentleman]

Well, Mike Tyson has entered the conversation controversy. After starting off well in an interview with "I wasn't there, I don't know what happened," Tyson follows up with "It's a disgrace that man hasn't been dragged out of his house and tied to a car and taken away. That's the only kind of retribution that people like that understand. It's a disgrace that man hasn't been shot yet. Forget about him being arrested--the fact that he hasn't been shot yet is a disgrace."

I'm not sure what level of sophistication one needs to get from "I have no idea what happened" to "We should still shoot the bastard" in practically the same sentence, but I feel that Tyson, in his own peculiar way, has perfectly summed up the national reaction to this case. Granted, even though I've stated above that I am not surprised -based on the limited amount of information we have about each person in this case- that either man ended up involved in a situation like this, I've still at least tried to look at this from several reasoned perspectives - which is more than the rest of America seems to have done. Personally I think this case says less about law enforcement and race in this country than it does about how incredibly reactionary, sensationalist, and overall dumb we are as a country. But who knows, maybe by the end of this situation the good people of Florida will give me reason for hope.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by The Esteemed Gentleman

Well, I don't disagree. After all, I pretty much admitted that I am just willing to bet that this kinda thing would have happened someday; I obviously have no proof of that. It's just the impression I get from what's come out and been reported. He seemed like a typical punk. Why should we be surprised he ended up in a deadly confrontation? I'm not sure we should be.

I don't agree. Nobody is predestined to meet their end in this manner. To me he's a typical black teen who I am constantly around as my job as a high school basketball coach.

Originally Posted by The Esteemed Gentleman

You'll never have the kind of proof you are looking for. I mean, I could easily ask you "Proof he didn't attack a bus driver?" and you'd come up with nothing. But the remark in my post is based off of Tweets his cousin apparently tweeted him saying something along the lines that the cousin was in amused disbelief that Martin had sucker-punched a bus driver. I assume it's true; why else would his cousin be laughing and asking about it?

Usually it's the person that says something exists that needs to provide proof of said something's existence. We know nothing of this supposed confrontation and there has been no bus driver coming forward to say it happened either. Until there's something more than a cryptic tweet...I am going to say it probably didn't happen.

Originally Posted by The Esteemed Gentleman

Well, that'll be something for trial. But there is no evidence that Zimmerman initiated force against Martin. The medical examiner made note that Martin did not bear any indication of being in a physical altercation (aside from being shot), while enhanced images of the back of Zimmerman's head from ABC News show that Zimmerman does have (or did, anyway) bruises and swelling from injuries. So it seems more probably than not that Martin started and won the fight and was not struck by Zimmerman (until he got shot of course).

That wasn't the medical examiner...it was the mortician and he really can't speak on it with any certainty. While saying it didn't look like Trayvon was in an altercation, of particular note he says that his hands had zero marks on them...not really indicative of the fight to the death Zimmerman proclaimed. His face and head in the video also don't indicate said fight to the death. No blood on clothes...didn't go to hospital...minor cuts and bruises...and again...so what? If he started the fight, Trayvon is more than welcome to shut him down. Probably doesn't cut it. We don't know who started it but you can look at who the aggressor was (Zimmerman watched, followed then chased Trayvon while Martin was moving away and running from the situation...now which person wanted it more?) and make your determinations from that.

Originally Posted by The Esteemed Gentleman

Well, for the purposes of this trial, sure (for the most part). Character evidence is tough to get into evidence at trial under most circumstances. But speaking generally here on the internet, I think it is appropriate to look at the whole picture of who these two people were and I think an argument can be made that, regarding both of them, society hasn't lost much. Cold and callous? Maybe. That doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Still say it doesn't matter...and again...nothing Martin has been shown to do in his past is out of line with what I see with the typical black teens I see every day.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by The Great Catpiss

"let me emphasize, we do not prosecute by public pressure"
And the lies begin...
Do they think we are idiots?


Who is this guy that they arrested? He looks 60 lbs lighter than in the other photos. The actual weight difference between Martin and Zimmerman was closer to 10-20 lbs, not the 50-70 lbs that the media wanted people to assume.

Booking photo:

Nobody knows where the 250 claim came from. I haven't been able to track that down myself. I was assuming they got the info from his license which could be years old. Just because the media runs with every little tidbit they find out doesn't mean that Zimmerman is any less guilty or any more innocent.

But just a note about his weight...a lot of his supporters ran with his weight too as a reason he couldn't run after Martin or why he couldn't defend himself...like he was some obese invalid.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by The Great Catpiss

It was a $1300 watch. They even said they were grabbing the watch out loud. They also took his iphone, wallet and keys.

Again, I have no idea what was taken and at what time it was taken. The people robbing him after the fact should be arrested and thrown in jail. I haven't said any differently. I don't know what it is that was taken from his pocket by the guy that punched him and why.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by The Great Catpiss

There's been way too many assumptions. I've been playing devil's advocate as people are stating their own conclusions as facts. As much of the devil's advocate I've been, I've also made my own assumptions...

The most probable scenario in my mind:
Martin attacked Zimmerman. Both Separated, and the gun came out. Martin screamed for his life. Zimmerman was so angry that he pulled the trigger.

I think the 911 call with the scream and the gunshot is the most haunting evidence. Most scenarios that I run in my head all make this look like murder. Other possible evidence will be GPS locations that may discredit something Zimmerman said. Also the bullet entry angle may be key.

What I don't get...and not really using you as this example...but you said the same thing...is that people are so easy to claim it was Martin that initiated the attack. I don't see that at all from the evidence presented.

Zimmerman was in the truck. He got out and went after Martin. Martin was walking away and at one point Zimmerman says "he's running"...indicated that he was always moving away.

Why would Martin be the aggressor when Zimmerman was the one from the very beginning initiating this conflict? I don't understand that thought process. In addition...if you listen to his 911 call...you can hear Zimmerman get out of his truck and run after Martin...the wind starts when he takes off...the wind stops when he is told he doesn't need to do that. The call goes on for another two minutes after that point. Why didn't Zimmerman ever get back to his truck? He didn't run that far after Martin...why didn't he get back? What was he doing? That leads me to believe he most certainly resumed his search for his suspect and eventually cornered Martin...it's not a stretch to think that he tried to detain Martin and Martin defended himself.

[SonicBoom]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

He isn't walking anywhere...except after the guy who took his keys. To claim he's trying to get to safety is ridiculous. It's more than obvious he's going after the guy.

First, I'd like to again ask for the time when you feel whitey was being aggressive. I just want to be crystal clear here. Give me a number please.

Second, walking towards someone does not constitute physical aggression. There is no proof of him being aggressive towards the guy with his keys..

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by SonicBoom

First, I'd like to again ask for the time when you feel whitey was being aggressive. I just want to be crystal clear here. Give me a number please.

Second, walking towards someone does not constitute physical aggression. There is no proof of him being aggressive towards the guy with his keys..

If you can't see it then no number in the world is going to help you see it. White blindness I call it.

[SonicBoom]

no answer, more BS. Standard Operating Procedure.

[kinggovernor]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

In other news, Zimmerman charged with 2nd degree murder. Interesting turn. I thought at most manslaughter but they think differently obviously.

I agree that Zimmerman has been overcharged


and that your trolling in this thread is subpar

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by SonicBoom

no answer, more BS. Standard Operating Procedure.

I answered your question. You can CLEARLY see when he walks towards the guy. It's an aggressive move.

To answer your second question, yes, it does...if you're walking with aggression TOWARDS someone.

[The Esteemed Gentleman]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

I don't agree. Nobody is predestined to meet their end in this manner.

Of course not. But I think peoples' conduct in how they behave towards other people predisposes them to certain events. Assuming what we've heard about Zimmerman and Martin is true, I am just not surprised each ended up in the position they are both now in.

Originally Posted by Donkey®

To me he's a typical black teen who I am constantly around as my job as a high school basketball coach.

1. You're a baller?! Nice. 2. I find it unfortunate that a young, apparently somewhat violent and troublesome teenager is what constitutes "a typical black teen."

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Usually it's the person that says something exists that needs to provide proof of said something's existence. We know nothing of this supposed confrontation and there has been no bus driver coming forward to say it happened either. Until there's something more than a cryptic tweet...I am going to say it probably didn't happen.

Well, you can do that; you can ignore evidence reported in the media that is no different or more or less credible than other evidence presented concerning Martin or Zimmerman. I posted the article in the OP, so it's not like I am making the claim up.

Meanwhile, the difference between the typical teenager Martin's family and supporters say he was and the way he presented himself on social media is the subject of increasing debate.

As Dan Linehan, a blogger at Wagist.com, pointed out, correspondence with Martin on Twitter before he died alludes to an incident with a bus driver. "Yu ain't tell me you swung on a bus driver," Martin's cousin wrote to him on Feb. 21.

Now I have no idea why his cousin would say that if it didn't happen. And I can't speak to why the bus driver hasn't come out to pile on; maybe they don't remember it because, as you say, Martin is a "typical" male black teen and that kind of stuff happens all the time? Or maybe, considering the media circus this case has become, that the driver this apparently happened to doesn't want any part of this national circus (and really, who could blame them!?). The point is that his cousin probably had reason to believe the incident actually happened, had no reason to lie about it, and the tweet is evidence it did happen. If you want to act like it's all a big lie because no bus driver has come forward, I guess that's your prerogative.

Other articles discuss how the image the family of Martin is trying to portray Martin in is belied by the facts of a much more "complex" individual who isn't exactly a model citizen.

Originally Posted by Donkey®

That wasn't the medical examiner...it was the mortician and he really can't speak on it with any certainty. While saying it didn't look like Trayvon was in an altercation, of particular note he says that his hands had zero marks on them...not really indicative of the fight to the death Zimmerman proclaimed.

1. Good catch, it was the mortician. I knew that; calling them the Med-Examiner was my error. 2. Well, I think it says that in any event, Zimmerman never landed a blow against Martin of any significance. Regarding whether Martin's hands would show evidence of punching something, I don't know; I've punched things in the past and never noticed any lasting marks. And if you're merely holding someone's head and slamming it, I'm not sure that would leave marks either. So you could make the argument that just because Martin appeared fine other than the gunshot wound, it doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't an aggressor in a fight. From Zimmerman's account, he got hit once in the face and Martin then started hitting his head against the ground. If true, I'm not sure Martin would have any marks on him. But of course, the fact that Martin had no marks on him could just as easily be evidence that Zimmerman just blew him away and no fight happened.

Originally Posted by Donkey®

His face and head in the video also don't indicate said fight to the death. No blood on clothes...didn't go to hospital...minor cuts and bruises...and again...so what?

Well you yourself have said earlier in this thread that you think Martin beat Zimmerman's ass down, and that is what prompted Zimmerman to shoot him. I posted at some point in the thread an ABC News link where they enhanced the police department video of the back of Zimmerman's head, and it did show injury. Whether the injuries were as bad as claimed is another matter; the video is not dispositive. Further, you yourself have mentioned Zimmerman was probably cleaned up by EMT's. We are not sure if the clothes Zimmerman has on in the video are the same as the clothes he shot Martin in (which would be significant). So there's still more evidence that needs to come out here.

Originally Posted by Donkey®

If he started the fight, Trayvon is more than welcome to shut him down. Probably doesn't cut it. We don't know who started it but you can look at who the aggressor was (Zimmerman watched, followed then chased Trayvon while Martin was moving away and running from the situation...now which person wanted it more?) and make your determinations from that.

Well, if Zimmerman actually started a fight, Martin was more than welcome to use force. But how much force is the key. If I were to simply push you on the basketball court, would that justify you slamming my head into the ground? Probably not. Similarly, if all Zimmerman did was follow Martin, watch him, and ask him what he was doing in the neighborhood, that hardly gives Martin the right to punch Zimmerman and slam his head into the ground (if that is how the facts bear out at trial). Even if Zimmerman pushed or punched Martin, I'm not sure slamming someone's head into the ground is an appropriate response. That being said, at that point, is shooting someone justified? I guess that's for a jury to decide at this point.

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Still say it doesn't matter...and again...nothing Martin has been shown to do in his past is out of line with what I see with the typical black teens I see every day.

Well again, assuming the info we have about Martin is all true, and assuming what you say is true, that's pretty unfortunate and doesn't bear good tidings regarding the possible future of black America.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by The Esteemed Gentleman

Of course not. But I think peoples' conduct in how they behave towards other people predisposes them to certain events. Assuming what we've heard about Zimmerman and Martin is true, I am just not surprised each ended up in the position they are both now in.

That's the thing. There is no proof of violence in Martin's past. There is in Zimmerman's.

Originally Posted by The Esteemed Gentleman

1. You're a baller?! Nice. 2. I find it unfortunate that a young, apparently somewhat violent and troublesome teenager is what constitutes "a typical black teen."

Clarification...I am merely speaking on the things like his language in tweets, his gold teeth or style of dress, his "trouble" at school. I haven't been able to verify a single incident where he has exhibited any violence. The twitter thing could be nothing more than the typical fabrication teens make up in order to up their "rep." Also, the cousin is hearing a story from somewhere in second, third or fourth person...who knows what the story was by the time it got back to him. Again, I see nothing in Trayvon's "troubles" that lead me to believe he's violent in any way.


And when I compare him to the typical black teens I see daily...it's not all negative. These kids are without a doubt the nicest and most cordial and friendly kids I have ever been around. I have coached the preppy white kids as well as the inner city blacks and the difference between the two is palpable. I HATED my time with the white kids. They were arrogant, mouthy and entitled little shits. The black kids have NEVER been aggressive towards me either verbally or physically. That's just from my experience. I will say that they are definitely more volatile when it came to EACH OTHER or their PEERS...but towards myself and other adults? Perfect kids...even when some of them have had every reason not to be.

In addition, the "troubles" at school seem typical of what I see out of the black kids I am around. They do silly things or get caught up in silly incidents constantly...just because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time and they really are in an environment that makes it a lot easier to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Originally Posted by The Esteemed Gentleman

Well, you can do that; you can ignore evidence reported in the media that is no different or more or less credible than other evidence presented concerning Martin or Zimmerman. I posted the article in the OP, so it's not like I am making the claim up.
Now I have no idea why his cousin would say that if it didn't happen. And I can't speak to why the bus driver hasn't come out to pile on; maybe they don't remember it because, as you say, Martin is a "typical" male black teen and that kind of stuff happens all the time? Or maybe, considering the media circus this case has become, that the driver this apparently happened to doesn't want any part of this national circus (and really, who could blame them!?). The point is that his cousin probably had reason to believe the incident actually happened, had no reason to lie about it, and the tweet is evidence it did happen. If you want to act like it's all a big lie because no bus driver has come forward, I guess that's your prerogative.

Again...I am more likely to believe that it didn't happen without any solid proof. A tweet just doesn't cut it because who knows exactly what story he heard and if it was even close to what the actual story was.

Originally Posted by The Esteemed Gentleman

Other articles discuss how the image the family of Martin is trying to portray Martin in is belied by the facts of a much more "complex" individual who isn't exactly a model citizen.

What is a "burglary tool?" A screwdriver? A set of pliers? Was he charged with anything? Being suspended really doesn't mean much. If there was a crime, he should have been arrested and charged.

Originally Posted by The Esteemed Gentleman

1. Good catch, it was the mortician. I knew that; calling them the Med-Examiner was my error. 2. Well, I think it says that in any event, Zimmerman never landed a blow against Martin of any significance. Regarding whether Martin's hands would show evidence of punching something, I don't know; I've punched things in the past and never noticed any lasting marks. And if you're merely holding someone's head and slamming it, I'm not sure that would leave marks either. So you could make the argument that just because Martin appeared fine other than the gunshot wound, it doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't an aggressor in a fight. From Zimmerman's account, he got hit once in the face and Martin then started hitting his head against the ground. If true, I'm not sure Martin would have any marks on him. But of course, the fact that Martin had no marks on him could just as easily be evidence that Zimmerman just blew him away and no fight happened.

I just don't think he's qualified to speak on it. I will love to hear the medical examiner's report though.

Originally Posted by The Esteemed Gentleman

Well you yourself have said earlier in this thread that you think Martin beat Zimmerman's ass down, and that is what prompted Zimmerman to shoot him. I posted at some point in the thread an ABC News link where they enhanced the police department video of the back of Zimmerman's head, and it did show injury. Whether the injuries were as bad as claimed is another matter; the video is not dispositive. Further, you yourself have mentioned Zimmerman was probably cleaned up by EMT's. We are not sure if the clothes Zimmerman has on in the video are the same as the clothes he shot Martin in (which would be significant). So there's still more evidence that needs to come out here.

They are. He never changed clothes. They would do that at the station. They take him in, process him, photograph him, then bag his clothes. That's procedure and seeing as though I don't see any major blunders by the police in this case, I have no reason to believe that they messed that up.

Originally Posted by The Esteemed Gentleman

Well, if Zimmerman actually started a fight, Martin was more than welcome to use force. But how much force is the key. If I were to simply push you on the basketball court, would that justify you slamming my head into the ground? Probably not. Similarly, if all Zimmerman did was follow Martin, watch him, and ask him what he was doing in the neighborhood, that hardly gives Martin the right to punch Zimmerman and slam his head into the ground (if that is how the facts bear out at trial). Even if Zimmerman pushed or punched Martin, I'm not sure slamming someone's head into the ground is an appropriate response. That being said, at that point, is shooting someone justified? I guess that's for a jury to decide at this point.

See, that's what I don't understand. Martin couldn't take all necessary steps to stop his attacker...up to and including killing him...but Zimmerman can? Self defense is self defense and just as Zimmerman could have shot Martin while in fear for his life after getting beat down...Martin could have done the same. But again, that would show some evidence of a fight on his hands and the mortuary said nothing was seen...so I mean...how bad of a beating was it? There is NO witness to claim to have seen Martin slamming Zimmerman's head on the ground. Zimmerman could have just as easily hit it after falling by himself in the wet grass. We don't know.

Originally Posted by The Esteemed Gentleman

Well again, assuming the info we have about Martin is all true, and assuming what you say is true, that's pretty unfortunate and doesn't bear good tidings regarding the possible future of black America.

Again, it isn't all bad when I compare them...as noted above.

[SonicBoom]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

I answered your question. You can CLEARLY see when he walks towards the guy. It's an aggressive move.

To answer your second question, yes, it does...if you're walking with aggression TOWARDS someone.

Let's assume for a minute that you are correct.

The guy who did the punching was not defending himself. That was a sucker punch. All he did was escalate the confrontation.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by SonicBoom

Let's assume for a minute that you are correct.

The guy who did the punching was not defending himself. That was a sucker punch. All he did was escalate the confrontation.

He was walking towards him in an aggressive manner. Do that to a cop, they can shoot you. To call that a sucker punch is a little assumptive. If he's going to go after someone, he should probably be ready to put his hands up and defend himself...I know I would.

[wanna be drummer]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

He was walking towards him in an aggressive manner. Do that to a cop, they can shoot you. To call that a sucker punch is a little assumptive. If he's going to go after someone, he should probably be ready to put his hands up and defend himself...I know I would.

Your problem here is...this doesn't make him the aggressor regardless.