A question for those that support minimum wage increases

[Scrum]

OK, i'm going to throw my line in the water here, maybe on a different track though....


The biggest reason I support a minimum wage is that people who are making that much are more likely to be collecting public aid to survive. That money comes from all of us. When their wages increase, that money comes from their employeer and by extension, the people who patronize their employeer. I feel that is is those people who are responsible for these workers well being, not the sum of the American people through a social program.

Also, any company that's going to go belly up from a wage increase like that was going to die anyway. minimum wage isn't even a fair wage. If you couldn't even afford to pay a fair wage and had no room to increse it, your business was going to tank anyway.

[lew]

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

OK, i'm going to throw my line in the water here, maybe on a different track though....


The biggest reason I support a minimum wage is that people who are making that much are more likely to be collecting public aid to survive. That money comes from all of us. When their wages increase, that money comes from their employeer and by extension, the people who patronize their employeer. I feel that is is those people who are responsible for these workers well being, not the sum of the American people through a social program.

Also, any company that's going to go belly up from a wage increase like that was going to die anyway. minimum wage isn't even a fair wage. If you couldn't even afford to pay a fair wage and had no room to increse it, your business was going to tank anyway.

Minimum wage laws seriously hurt the very people that they are supposed to be helping. If an employer has to give raises to it's minimum wage workers, one of three things will happen.

1. Prices of goods will raise as well, which then in turn affects everyone and will hurt companies because people won't buy as much from them anymore.

2. Companies will lay off some workers and tell the other workers that they have to make up for the slack.

3. Companies hire illegal workers and pay them "slave wages."


Minimum wage = bad. For every 1 person it "helps" it hurts 100 others.

[hsmith]

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

OK, i'm going to throw my line in the water here, maybe on a different track though....


The biggest reason I support a minimum wage is that people who are making that much are more likely to be collecting public aid to survive. That money comes from all of us. When their wages increase, that money comes from their employeer and by extension, the people who patronize their employeer. I feel that is is those people who are responsible for these workers well being, not the sum of the American people through a social program.

Also, any company that's going to go belly up from a wage increase like that was going to die anyway. minimum wage isn't even a fair wage. If you couldn't even afford to pay a fair wage and had no room to increse it, your business was going to tank anyway.

So why hire people that have no skills if they aren't even worth the min wage?

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by lew

1. Prices of goods will raise as well, which then in turn affects everyone and will hurt companies because people won't buy as much from them anymore.

2. Companies will lay off some workers and tell the other workers that they have to make up for the slack.

3. Companies hire illegal workers and pay them "slave wages."

That didn't really address any of my points, but....

1. Yes. It will effect everyone who buys from them. Those are the people who should bear the burden of paying these people a fair wage, not the rest of us.

2. That happens all the time and has nothing to do with minimum wage.

3. Law enforcement problem. This needs to be stopped.

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by hsmith

So why hire people that have no skills if they aren't even worth the min wage?

Who says you have to hire anyone?

Thi isn't a law saying it's your right to have a job. It's saying an employeer has to pay you something that keeps you from eating out of a garbage can.

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by lew

Minimum wage laws seriously hurt the very people that they are supposed to be helping. If an employer has to give raises to it's minimum wage workers, one of three things will happen.

1. Prices of goods will raise as well, which then in turn affects everyone and will hurt companies because people won't buy as much from them anymore.

2. Companies will lay off some workers and tell the other workers that they have to make up for the slack.

3. Companies hire illegal workers and pay them "slave wages."


Minimum wage = bad. For every 1 person it "helps" it hurts 100 others.

I would add another opition - the employer may simply worsen working conditions to make up for the increased wage.

For example, rather than put a few bucks into the disgusting employee bathroom, the employer might put that money towards salary. I'm not going to say whether this is bad or good, but I think it is more common than most think.

[lew]

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

That didn't really address any of my points, but....

1. Yes. It will effect everyone who buys from them. Those are the people who should bear the burden of paying these people a fair wage, not the rest of us.

2. That happens all the time and has nothing to do with minimum wage.

3. Law enforcement problem. This needs to be stopped.

1. It hurts the same people. The people that work minimum wage shop at the same places they get paid by. If the workers at Burger King get $1 raise, Burger King's prices will rise, and those same exact people will pay more for their own food. They are the ones that pay for their increase. Society doesn't. They themselves do.

2. It has everything to do with minimum wage. If wages are forced up, this will force people out of their jobs. For that sole reason. The very raising hurts most the people that are supposed to benefit from it.

3. I agree it's a law enforcement problem. But there wouldn't even be a problem if we had secure borders and no minimum wage laws.

[lew]

Originally Posted by Phantom

I would add another opition - the employer may simply worsen working conditions to make up for the increased wage.

For example, rather than put a few bucks into the disgusting employee bathroom, the employer might put that money towards salary. I'm not going to say whether this is bad or good, but I think it is more common than most think.

I agree. Raising minimum wage helps no one, except for politicians that push it, because ignorant people keep voting for them, thinking they're great.

[Rouger2]

Originally Posted by Publius

Would you also support the government setting a minimum price for milk of, say, $5 per gallon? After all, family owned milk producers are going under because their product is not profitable at the current levels and they have no other skills to fall back on.

So shouldn't the government help out these people by setting a price floor under which their product cannot legally be sold? After all, they do it for people that are selling the product known as labor.

They help out milk farmers. They only allow so many milk farms to exist. They subsidize wheat farmers and pay some of them to not grow wheat. Why play socialism with almost everyone else and not help out the lowest paid laborers. Did they not help out the air lines and one of the giant auto makers. The lowest have to play by capitalist rules but no one else. They say that this country has Capitalism for the poor and socialism for the rich.

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by lew

I agree. Raising minimum wage helps no one, except for politicians that push it, because ignorant people keep voting for them, thinking they're great.

That pretty much sums up my opinion. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree with the others though.

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by lew

1. It hurts the same people. The people that work minimum wage shop at the same places they get paid by. If the workers at Burger King get $1 raise, Burger King's prices will rise, and those same exact people will pay more for their own food. They are the ones that pay for their increase. Society doesn't. They themselves do.

That's one case. Many min. wage workers don't work for fast food, retail, or anything like that. They clean bathrooms, do expensive lawns and help build expensive houses and buildings that they could never afford to live in. It's not just going to hit those people it's designed to help.

Originally Posted by lew

2. It has everything to do with minimum wage. If wages are forced up, this will force people out of their jobs. For that sole reason. The very raising hurts most the people that are supposed to benefit from it.

Companies still do this all the time, even when it has nothing to do with minimum wage.

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by Rouger2

They help out milk farmers. They only allow so many milk farms to exist. They subsidize wheat farmers and pay some of them to not grow wheat. Why play socialism with almost everyone else and not help out the lowest paid laborers. Did they not help out the air lines and one of the giant auto makers. The lowest have to play by capitalist rules but no one else. They say that this country has Capitalism for the poor and socialism for the rich.

Great post. There is a large amount of coperate welfare going on, but I don't think these guys care much for that either.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by Rouger2

They help out milk farmers. They only allow so many milk farms to exist. They subsidize wheat farmers and pay some of them to not grow wheat. Why play socialism with almost everyone else and not help out the lowest paid laborers. Did they not help out the air lines and one of the giant auto makers. The lowest have to play by capitalist rules but no one else. They say that this country has Capitalism for the poor and socialism for the rich.

And I oppose all forms of corporate welfare, subsidies, etc. But my point is we already have a minimum wage, why increase it if you aren't also going to increase the corporate welfare, subsidies, etc? Treating one segment of the population differently, either to that segment's advantage or disadvantage, is wrong.

[motivez]

Seems like there's really two talking points about the minimum wage.

On the one hand, people talk about it destroying the economy, hurting small business, driving prices up, etc..

But on the other hand, I hear time and time again that there's really not very many people who make minimum wage, for whatever reason..

So, if there's not that many people, why is it such a huge deal?

Can someone provide hard statistics on the number of people who work for minimum wage, who live on it, etc?

[kinggovernor]

Originally Posted by Publius

And I oppose all forms of corporate welfare, subsidies, etc. But my point is we already have a minimum wage, why increase it if you aren't also going to increase the corporate welfare, subsidies, etc? Treating one segment of the population differently, either to that segment's advantage or disadvantage, is wrong.

why don't we just get rid of min wage and corporate welfare

[motivez]

Treating one segment of the population differently, either to that segment's advantage or disadvantage, is wrong.

If it helps them get a start on a successful and productive life contributing to the American economy, why is that the case?

I never understand why people think allowing people a 'starting point' is such a bad idea.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by motivez

So, if there's not that many people, why is it such a huge deal?

Because the few million that do make it will lose their jobs, which will hurt all of us indirectly.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by motivez

If it helps them get a start on a successful and productive life contributing to the American economy, why is that the case?

I never understand why people think allowing people a 'starting point' is such a bad idea.

How does a minimum wage job earning even $6.25 or $6.50 an hour make them a successful and productive contributing member of the economy? It no more does that than a $3.00 an hour job could according to those on the left that say the minimum wage is too low because no one can live on it.

What the VAST majority of minimum wage jobs do is provide job experience and skills so that workers can move into higher paying jobs later. In that respect, minimum wage IS harmful because it punishes the segment of society that needs the job experience the most: those with no experience and no skills that are trying to enter the work force.

So tell me this, using rationality and logic rather than appeals to abstract concepts of "social justice" and "fairness" ... Given that the vast majority of minimum wage jobs are more about getting experience than they are about getting lots of money, why would you make it harder for the people that want or need those jobs to get them by making it more expensive for businesses to hire them?

[Publius]

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

why don't we just get rid of min wage and corporate welfare

because that would be sensible.