A question for those that support minimum wage increases

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Publius

How does a minimum wage job earning even $6.25 or $6.50 an hour make them a successful and productive contributing member of the economy? It no more does that than a $3.00 an hour job could according to those on the left that say the minimum wage is too low because no one can live on it.

People *do* live on minimum wage, and being able to barely survive, learn skills on the job, and move up is better than winding up homeless because you're unable to afford rent and food at the same time.

Originally Posted by Publius

What the VAST majority of minimum wage jobs do is provide job experience and skills so that workers can move into higher paying jobs later. In that respect, minimum wage IS harmful because it punishes the segment of society that needs the job experience the most: those with no experience and no skills that are trying to enter the work force.

So tell me this, using rationality and logic rather than appeals to abstract concepts of "social justice" and "fairness" ... Given that the vast majority of minimum wage jobs are more about getting experience than they are about getting lots of money, why would you make it harder for the people that want or need those jobs to get them by making it more expensive for businesses to hire them?

I'm not sure I buy that it's going to make it more difficult to get those jobs, again, I'd need to see some statistics about minimum wage, which despite asking for in every thread, no one has been able to provide.

I'm not sure this is a debate about 'fairness', but social justice certainly, what kind of lives we want for the least successful members of our society to be if they want to work and move up, etc..

I'm still on the fence about minimum wage honestly, because I hear the same talking points in every thread from every single person, but I never see any statistics to back anything up.

Until that I can only go on the abstract idea of wanting every American who decides they want to work for a better life (even if it's come after failures and mistakes and they have no skills) to have a chance, and allowing them to earn enough money to 'live' doesn't seem like that bad of an idea.

If it really doesn't impact that many people, what's the problem anyway?

[Rouger2]

Originally Posted by Publius

And I oppose all forms of corporate welfare, subsidies, etc. But my point is we already have a minimum wage, why increase it if you aren't also going to increase the corporate welfare, subsidies, etc? Treating one segment of the population differently, either to that segment's advantage or disadvantage, is wrong.

They are not going to cut out welfare for the corporations. They own Washington. If they're was true capitalism or competition in American business then maybe you would keep the minimum wage as it is but big corporations don compete more money for CEOs and stock holders take the money form them to pay higher minimum wage. That would happen if there was true competition in business

[Publius]

Originally Posted by motivez

People *do* live on minimum wage, and being able to barely survive, learn skills on the job, and move up is better than winding up homeless because you're unable to afford rent and food at the same time.



I'm not sure I buy that it's going to make it more difficult to get those jobs, again, I'd need to see some statistics about minimum wage, which despite asking for in every thread, no one has been able to provide.

I'm not sure this is a debate about 'fairness', but social justice certainly, what kind of lives we want for the least successful members of our society to be if they want to work and move up, etc..

I'm still on the fence about minimum wage honestly, because I hear the same talking points in every thread from every single person, but I never see any statistics to back anything up.

Until that I can only go on the abstract idea of wanting every American who decides they want to work for a better life (even if it's come after failures and mistakes and they have no skills) to have a chance, and allowing them to earn enough money to 'live' doesn't seem like that bad of an idea.

If it really doesn't impact that many people, what's the problem anyway?

NCPA - Study #190 - Why the Minimum Wage Law Causes Unemployment

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by Publius

Would you also support the government setting a minimum price for milk of, say, $5 per gallon? After all, family owned milk producers are going under because their product is not profitable at the current levels and they have no other skills to fall back on.

So shouldn't the government help out these people by setting a price floor under which their product cannot legally be sold? After all, they do it for people that are selling the product known as labor.

Thats an extremely dangerous premise that helped prolong the great depression. This type of thinking actually had something to do with bringing on the great depression.

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by motivez

I'm not sure this is a debate about 'fairness', but social justice certainly, what kind of lives we want for the least successful members of our society to be if they want to work and move up, etc..

Is it about social justice or is it about animus toward business?

If it's about social justice, I encourage everyone voting for the minimum wage to open up their own wallets and give their money away. Social justice is a fun argument, but when it comes to putting your money where your mouth is, everyone shuts up and looks towards corporations to do the work...

[motivez]

That's because it's the corporations that hire people to do the work. I have no animosity towards responsible companies at all. However, would you support people being paid slave labor simply because they had no other options and had to take the work?

I don't make much money since I'm a student, but I donate to the ADA and ACS.. so I'm comfortable making the statement I did.

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by Phantom

Social justice is a fun argument, but when it comes to putting your money where your mouth is, everyone shuts up and looks towards corporations to do the work...

We all pay through social programs so these companies get to have a better bottom line.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

Thats an extremely dangerous premise that helped prolong the great depression. This type of thinking actually had something to do with bringing on the great depression.

Trust me, I'm aware. Scary that some people still think this way.

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

We all pay through social programs so these companies get have a better bottom line.

Are you suggesting social welfare programs give persons extra income so they can "afford" to work lower paying jobs, therefore increasing corporate profit?

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by Phantom

Are you suggesting social welfare programs give persons extra income so they can "afford" to work lower paying jobs, therefore increasing corporate profit?

Yes.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

Yes.

Sounds like an argument for getting rid of social welfare to me.

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by Publius

Sounds like an argument for getting rid of social welfare to me.

thats what i was thinking

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by Publius

Sounds like an argument for getting rid of social welfare to me.

I'm more than willing to discuss getting people off of it.

Time limits and criteria like actively seeking work would go a long way.

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by Publius

Would you also support the government setting a minimum price for milk of, say, $5 per gallon? After all, family owned milk producers are going under because their product is not profitable at the current levels and they have no other skills to fall back on.

So shouldn't the government help out these people by setting a price floor under which their product cannot legally be sold? After all, they do it for people that are selling the product known as labor.

No, because people have to sell their labor; no one is forced to sell milk.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Publius

NCPA - Study #190 - Why the Minimum Wage Law Causes Unemployment

That article seems a bit dated, and doesn't take into account that the minimum wage hasn't really increased in forever.

It also doesn't really talk about how many people are actually making minimum wage, which business would be affected the most, etc..

There's all this talk about it raising prices and tigers and bears, oh my.. but again, on the other hand there's talk about it not being worth the time because there's really not that many people who make it.

[hsmith]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

No, because people have to sell their labor; no one is forced to sell milk.

You are not forced to work or work for anyone.

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by hsmith

You are not forced to work or work for anyone.

Everyone is more than free to starve out in the street.

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by hsmith

You are not forced to work or work for anyone.

Yes, you are forced to work. If you don't, you'll die. A choice between something and death is not really a choice.

[lew]

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

Everyone is more than free to starve out in the street.

Last I heard, if you don't work, the government will take care of you.