walmart says "merry christmas"

[nbiggershaft]

Alliance Defense Fund

"or decades, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) and its allies led a campaign of fear, intimidation, and disinformation designed to censor our nation's Christian heritage by driving the most popular holiday--Christmas--from the public square."

"In 2005, ADF-allied attorneys contacted nearly 11,000 school districts representing more than 68,000 schools, along with a host of government agencies and institutions, with information on what the law really says about celebrating Christmas. Our efforts to get the word out received a huge boost from media giants Bill O'Reilly, John Gibson, Laura Ingraham, Sean Hannity, and ADF co-founder Dr. James Dobson's Focus on the Family."




Christmas, fuck yah

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

People are completely missing the point about this whole thing.

It's not the use of the word, or what word takes its place. It's the REASON that people are changing the word that is used. People are saying 'we can't say Merry Christmas because we might offend someone that isn't a Christian'.

I think that's a fair reason to not say it, but I disagree that "Christmas" is a Christian thing. It predates Christianity by quite a bit, and it's a pagan astrological allegory.

That excuse, no matter who uses it, is pretty lame, especially in a country that is 70% Christian, and 99% of the remaining 30% don't give a damn.

I agree that it's lame. People shouldn't be offended by it.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

I think that's a fair reason to not say it, but I disagree that "Christmas" is a Christian thing. It predates Christianity by quite a bit, and it's a pagan astrological allegory.

For some, the word 'Christ' that it contains, as well as the reason we Americans celebrate it, is enough for people to complain about it.

But the issue is deeper than that. There are many instances where public facilities or grounds forbid the use of a Christian symbol or activies, while at the very same time allowing any other religion to do what they want. The fact is, these are public grounds, and just because the 'government controls them' doesn't mean they are enforcing the religion that's using the grounds, it only means they are letting the public do what they want with public grounds. It's ridiculous to ban anybody from doing so, no matter the religion.

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

For some, the word 'Christ' that it contains, as well as the reason we Americans celebrate it, is enough for people to complain about it.

But the issue is deeper than that. There are many instances where public facilities or grounds forbid the use of a Christian symbol or activies, while at the very same time allowing any other religion to do what they want. The fact is, these are public grounds, and just because the 'government controls them' doesn't mean they are enforcing the religion that's using the grounds, it only means they are letting the public do what they want with public grounds. It's ridiculous to ban anybody from doing so, no matter the religion.

If the group is renting the land and putting up holiday stuff, that's fine. If it's all being publicly funded via tax dollars, then I'm against it. The government has no business pissing away tax dollars on such crap, especially if part of that money is coming from people that are against the holiday. Whatever happened to "no taxation without representation"?

Personally, I'm all for Christmas and Christman crap, but I wouldn't want my Jewish neighbors to be forced to fund something that they deem blasphemous, much like how a Christian might prefer not to fund stem cell research because he thinks it's immoral.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

If the group is renting the land and putting up holiday stuff, that's fine. If it's all being publicly funded via tax dollars, then I'm against it. The government has no business pissing away tax dollars on such crap, especially if part of that money is coming from people that are against the holiday. Whatever happened to "no taxation without representation"?

In most instances, the people are doing things themselves.

For example, a neighborhood has a fork in the road. People put up their sumbols, etc. Jewish, Christian, whatever. The Christians are asked to take down their nativity scene, but nobody else is asked ot take their shit down. Why?

Another. A public meeting hall is reserved by a group to have a meeting, some sort of Bible study or Christian meeting or something. They are refused use of the public meeting hall after someone complains. But other groups are allowed to use it for pretty much anything and everything. Why?

I could go on and on...the point is, the government isn't really funding anything.

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

In most instances, the people are doing things themselves.

most is not all. The group should never be given funds that benefit the group. The government should only deligate funds that benefit all individuals, not selected groups. How would you feel if it was to provide funding for some sort of Church of Satan event? I'm sure the Church of Satan would feel the same way about Christian events.

For example, a neighborhood has a fork in the road. People put up their sumbols, etc. Jewish, Christian, whatever. The Christians are asked to take down their nativity scene, but nobody else is asked ot take their shit down. Why?

Dunno why, but the Christians are welcome to complain about the other groups as well. Perhaps the Christians were being a bit overwhelming and loading the place up with Christian stuff, and the other groups complained because the Christians were throwing their weight around. That would be my best guess since, like you said, 70% of the people are Christian. But again, I'm not sure why.

Another. A public meeting hall is reserved by a group to have a meeting, some sort of Bible study or Christian meeting or something. They are refused use of the public meeting hall after someone complains. But other groups are allowed to use it for pretty much anything and everything. Why?

Vote in representatives that won't let that happen.


PS-
I also edited my previous post, in case you care to read it.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

Dunno why, but the Christians are welcome to complain about the other groups as well. Perhaps the Christians were being a bit overwhelming and loading the place up with Christian stuff, and the other groups complained because the Christians were throwing their weight around. That would be my best guess since, like you said, 70% of the people are Christian. But again, I'm not sure why.

Maybe they're above that

[imind]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

In most instances, the people are doing things themselves.

For example, a neighborhood has a fork in the road. People put up their sumbols, etc. Jewish, Christian, whatever. The Christians are asked to take down their nativity scene, but nobody else is asked ot take their shit down. Why?

Another. A public meeting hall is reserved by a group to have a meeting, some sort of Bible study or Christian meeting or something. They are refused use of the public meeting hall after someone complains. But other groups are allowed to use it for pretty much anything and everything. Why?

I could go on and on...the point is, the government isn't really funding anything.

drballz, again, have any links to such happenings?

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by imind

drballz, again, have any links to such happenings?

If you dispute the links, I don't have time to find actual news stories, since these stories are so old and I'm sure there are a gazillion links talking about them. Also, what I gave were broad general examples that I had from memory. I'm sure there are probably more than a single instance of this happening. Here are just some small examples.

TESTIMONY OF Attorney Mathew D. Staver President and General Counsel of Liberty Counsel Be

In New Port Ritchie, Florida, the city displayed both a
nativity scene and a Jewish Menorah, but a Jewish Rabbi
objected to the display of the nativity of scene. The
nativity scene was taken down, but after some controversy,
was placed back up by a 4-3 vote.

Controversies over religious holidays bedevil the nation’s schools

Community members were particularly incensed that the nativity scene was removed while other religious and cultural symbols, including those representing Hanukkah and Kwanzaa, were allowed to remain.

Supreme Court asked to review New York City's ban on Nativity while allowing Jewish and Islamic symbols...

and

Appeals Court Upholds Nativity Ban in NYC Schools -- 02/03/2006

The example of the meeting room denied to Christian groups is in a book I have; I'll have to find the reference when I get home.

[ballz2wallz]

As you can see, there is clearly a bias to the religion that makes up the majority of this country. Why?

[TheScatman]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

What does going to school have anything to do with not being allowed to have nativity scenes on public property or say 'Merry Christmas' at work?

well I was just providing a reasons why Chrisitians may be saying theres a "war on christmas", etc.

As for your comment on public property, I think that highlights the problems of public property. in the end, everything dealing with it becomes politicized and ends up being used as the majority or buereaucrats see fit.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by TheScatman

As for your comment on public property, I think that highlights the problems of public property. in the end, everything dealing with it becomes politicized and ends up being used as the majority or buereaucrats see fit.

I'll even disagree with that; I think this country is so worried about offending the small minority (you'll hear the reason 'that's why we're a republic, not a true democracy!') that it's usually the minority that gets what they want, while the majority gets their toes stepped on.

[TheScatman]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

I'll even disagree with that; I think this country is so worried about offending the small minority (you'll hear the reason 'that's why we're a republic, not a true democracy!') that it's usually the minority that gets what they want, while the majority gets their toes stepped on.

well thats the point, in a truly limited government, that "barely escapes being no government at all" there are basically no disputes over uses of public property. once you start having large tracts of land that people can put nativity scenes on, or public school we are all forced to pay for, you've already opened pandoras box

[nbiggershaft]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

I'll even disagree with that; I think this country is so worried about offending the small minority (you'll hear the reason 'that's why we're a republic, not a true democracy!') that it's usually the minority that gets what they want, while the majority gets their toes stepped on.

Outside of a few isolated incidents, I still think this is mostly trumped up charged and the majority is far more represented. I hardly heard of any other religious holidays growing, but there was christmas everywhere, especially in school. We learned the story jesus in the manger and all that jazz with no repurcusions. I also never heard jews, muslims, athiests, aclu or anyone else complain. The only place this great struggle exists is in a couple courtrooms and out of the mouth's on conservative spokesmen.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

Outside of a few isolated incidents, I still think this is mostly trumped up charged and the majority is far more represented.

Well, I think that it happens a lot more than you realize. Given that the entire city of NY has banned nativities but allows Jewish and Muslim symbols is hardly an 'isolated incident'. To each his own I guess.

I hardly heard of any other religious holidays growing, but there was christmas everywhere, especially in school. We learned the story jesus in the manger and all that jazz with no repurcusions. I also never heard jews, muslims, athiests, aclu or anyone else complain.

Times are different now I guess.

The only place this great struggle exists is in a couple courtrooms and out of the mouth's on conservative spokesmen.

I doubt that conservatives and these 'couple courtrooms' would even be entertaining the idea had the issue not been brought up by...*gasp!*...someone else.

[nbiggershaft]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

I doubt that conservatives and these 'couple courtrooms' would even be entertaining the idea had the issue not been brought up by...*gasp!*...someone else.

Unless perhaps...... being pro christmas makes you look better and gets good ratings? And making your enemies against christmas makes them look bad?

Bill Arnot attended the cancer awareness summit.
My opponent did not.
Who's side is Mays Gilliam on, cancer or ours?

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

Bill Arnot attended the cancer awareness summit.
My opponent rallied to discontinue the cancer awareness summit.
Who's side is Mays Gilliam on, cancer or ours?

This would probably be a more appropriate analogy.

[nbiggershaft]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

This would probably be a more appropriate analogy.

My god, you mean athiests, jews, and democrats have been trying to destroy christmas all this time? oh noes, how could i have been so blind