Tech help: anyone getting Medieval Total War 2 or Gothic 3?

Thorgrim · 11-10-2006, 12:04 PM

I was really disappointed not only at how terrible Oblivion ran on my computer, but how the MTW2 demo just ran on it, even on the lowest settings

on the message board they say to up the graphical detail so more processing power is split by your GPU and CPU...if you do all low details then its mostly CPU

I have a
regular P4 at 2.8
6600GT
2gigs of DDR2 Ram

I was thinking of updating, but there's the never ending problem of "looks like something huge is just around the corner" (ie nvidias 8800 and now Quad Core processors?)

questions:

1) what the hell kind of monitors are running at 2540x1600? and is that really that amazing looking?
Right now highest I can go is 1280x
I have a huge monitor, like 23', but its like 3 years old so it won't even do 1600x...and I'm not about to drop 1000+ on a monitor when mine is huge and works fine at 1280 for 99% of what i want it to

2) Do any of the intel Duo CPUs run on the old motherboards used for P4s?

3) Would a Duo CPU really make that much of a difference?

4) Is that 6600GT really holding me back, 7900s prices haven't really dropped yet but 8800 is coming out and it looks like the new jesus

5) I feel like if I upgrade my GPU, i need to upgrade my CPU and vice versa...either way I need to spend like $800 total which I don't have

thanks tech people

Stylerod · 11-10-2006, 12:15 PM

When I am at the point that I still have a decent CPU/Motherboard (like I think you do) but think I would benefit from a better vid card I'll buy used. I don't want to spend $400 on the latest greatest video card when my other hardware is just "ok". But if you go to forums.anandtech.com you can find some great deals on year old cards that sold for $400+ a year ago and maybe still cost $280 and get it used for $150 or so.

I have purchased a lot from the people there. You can request things also if you don't see anyone selling what you like. You'd be surprised what people have laying around that they aren't using.

Nonphixion · 11-11-2006, 08:47 AM

1) Most modern LCD's run higher resolutions (means more pixels on screen, and more real-estate to work with) but also means your hardware has to exert itself more to maintain that res
2) No. Core 2 Duo's and Pentium D's (2 new lines from intel) both run on Socket 775 while P4 is Socket 478
3) Core 2 Duo CPU is leaps and bounds above a P4, almost 400% faster at the higher end
4) Yes you need to upgrade both or you will get what's called a bottleneck

-- However

If you only increase GPU power by a reasonable amount you could stay within your CPU's reasonable limit.

Here's a list of 4 cards;
Nvidia 7900GT or 7900GS
ATi X850 Pro
ATi X1600XT

Stylerod · 11-11-2006, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by Nonphixion

Here's a list of 4 cards;
Nvidia 7900GT or 7900GS
ATi X850 Pro
ATi X1600XT

I upgraded from a 6600 to a X850pro and it made a big difference in BF2 and other games.

Thorgrim · 11-11-2006, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Nonphixion

1) Most modern LCD's run higher resolutions (means more pixels on screen, and more real-estate to work with) but also means your hardware has to exert itself more to maintain that res
2) No. Core 2 Duo's and Pentium D's (2 new lines from intel) both run on Socket 775 while P4 is Socket 478
3) Core 2 Duo CPU is leaps and bounds above a P4, almost 400% faster at the higher end
4) Yes you need to upgrade both or you will get what's called a bottleneck

-- However

If you only increase GPU power by a reasonable amount you could stay within your CPU's reasonable limit.

Here's a list of 4 cards;
Nvidia 7900GT or 7900GS
ATi X850 Pro
ATi X1600XT

thanks, but here's some weird things
CPUz (CPUINFO) says:
My motherboard/cpu is LGA775 (the motherboard i got only took DDR2)
the chipset is: i915p/i915g
CPU name is: Intel P4 520
codename Prescott
spec: P4 2.80 GHZ

If it still can't handle a low cost Duo, I don't feel like spending $200 to get a 7900 and only getting slightly better results

Nonphixion · 11-11-2006, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

thanks, but here's some weird things
CPUz (CPUINFO) says:
My motherboard/cpu is LGA775 (the motherboard i got only took DDR2)
the chipset is: i915p/i915g
CPU name is: Intel P4 520
codename Prescott
spec: P4 2.80 GHZ

If it still can't handle a low cost Duo, I don't feel like spending $200 to get a 7900 and only getting slightly better results

Your chipset accepts both socket types, so you're fine in that respect, you motherboard takes Pentium 4/Pentium D/Core 2 Duo

JaJae · 11-11-2006, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

1) what the hell kind of monitors are running at 2540x1600? and is that really that amazing looking?
Right now highest I can go is 1280x
I have a huge monitor, like 23', but its like 3 years old so it won't even do 1600x...and I'm not about to drop 1000+ on a monitor when mine is huge and works fine at 1280 for 99% of what i want it to
Resolution isn't everything. The only things running that resolution are LCD TVs. 1280 x 1024 is all you need. Anymore than that and your video card/system won't be able to handle any graphics intensive games.

2) Do any of the intel Duo CPUs run on the old motherboards used for P4s?
No

3) Would a Duo CPU really make that much of a difference?
Yes, moreso for Windows apps, but the future of gaming is dual core. The pricing is cheap enough that if you're going to upgrade, not getting dual core is foolish.

4) Is that 6600GT really holding me back, 7900s prices haven't really dropped yet but 8800 is coming out and it looks like the new jesus
The 6600GT was a good card in it's day. But yes, it's holding you back now. That coupled with your dated processor is going to hinder you for future games. You should still be able to run games fine, but you may want to try playing them on slightly lower graphics and 1024x768. It may not look that great if you have an LCD though.

5) I feel like if I upgrade my GPU, i need to upgrade my CPU and vice versa...either way I need to spend like $800 total which I don't have
Not necessarily. Your motherboard can handle all the latest video cards. If you get a high end video card like a 7900GT you should be good to go for a while on most games. Some games that are more CPU intensive might give you some trouble though.

You could get it all done for about $500. $200 for the video card. $200 for a low end Core 2 processor. $100 for a Core 2 compatible Intel motherboard.

Reuse your memory, case, etc. Depending on your power supply you might have to upgrade, but it's not likely. And even still you could get a decent 400w power supply for $40-75. And if you really wanted to go cheap..
COOLER MASTER eXtreme Power RS-430-PCAR 400W Power Supply - Retail at Newegg.com
Cooler Master makes "ok" power supplies. But for $15 that's a steal. And you could easily find a Sparkle or Fortron 400 watt for $40.

For $200 something like this should help you a lot.
XFX GeForce 7900GT PV-T71G-UCF7 Video Card - Retail at Newegg.com
You have 2GB of memory which is great. The only thing holding you back really is that processor, but with a decent video card it could hold in strong. Especially if you're willing to spend some money on a good HSF and do a little overclocking.

Thorgrim · 11-11-2006, 03:25 PM

ok thanks for the help, but:

Ok one person is telling me it can handle a duo and another saying its not?
So could it handle this?
Intel Core 2 Duo E6300 1.86GHz LGA 775 Processor - Retail at Newegg.com
Is that even good? 1.86x2=3.72ghz? over 2.8...i guess thats a big jump, if the math even works out in actuality that way

APEVIA (ASPIRE) X-Dreamer ATXB3KLW-BK/420W Black Computer Case With Side Panel Window - Retail at Newegg.com
thats my current computer case
My memory is 2gigs of DDR2 Corsair

i wanted the CPU over the GPU because like I said, people from MTW2 are saying when you turn every option on superlow, it relegates a lot more data to be processed by your CPU instead of your GPU, if the Duo CPU is meant more for future games and thus won't be much help in so much as pure power increase, then I guess scratch it

Can that case, motherboard, etc fit a 7900GT good...should i try and stretch, wait a few weeks and see where 8800GT prices are? or is that just something that'll get bottlenecked and by the time I can upgrade everything else itll be outdated?

lastly, has the new 7900GT price (200 after rebate) factored in the price changed likely to be caused by the intro of the 8800? (meaning should i wait a month)

JaJae · 11-11-2006, 04:19 PM

The intel 915 chipset is not compatible with dual core cpus. You can't run a Pentium D let alone a Core 2 Duo.

So the answer is no, your board could not handle that processor.

The only way you could see a real performance gain on the CPU is to upgrade the motherboard.

JaJae · 11-11-2006, 04:25 PM

If you don't want to take my word for it:
HardwareCentral - Platform Trends: The Core 2 Duo Goes Mobile.

Our Pentium 4 upgrade recommendations now center on the various LGA775 platforms, as the availability of Socket 478 processors is simply too low to warrant inclusion. First-generation Intel 915, 925, and similar LGA775 motherboards are limited to single-core processors and can't be upgraded to a Pentium D or Core 2 Duo

Thorgrim · 11-11-2006, 04:43 PM

ok well if u get some time, there was some other stuff i was confused about...i dunno maybe i can find a new cheap motherboard...my memory is already DDR2 so i dont need new memory

JaJae · 11-11-2006, 05:14 PM

Feel free to ask whatever questions ya got man or hit me up with a PM.

Thorgrim · 11-11-2006, 05:29 PM

1) Have the price drops hit the 7900 yet...or should i wait a month or two to after the 8800 just got released

2) If I went with the Duo/new motherboard, that'd be like 240 on pricewatch, i dunno if thats the best play to get that kind of deal though

3) Would a 7900 and Duo make a huge difference in my gaming?
I currently play almost all my games on medium settings, low-to-no AA/Bloom, and never go above 1280x resolution....right now im seeing a lot of choppiness in games

4) My cooling system currently is two case fans, and whatever heatsink came with my GPU and CPU, however i keep my case temp according to my case never gets above 82F (right now its about 4 inches away from my subwoofer in the corner, im wondering if i should get a table and plop it ontop so it has more "breathing room")

5) My big, over-arching worry, is that ill update my CPU and that won't be enough my medium-taxing games will still be choppy, or ill update my GPU and same, or worst of all I'll do both and itll STILL be choppy...

Thorgrim · 11-13-2006, 01:39 PM

I'm still worried

JaJae · 11-13-2006, 03:26 PM

Sorry I read this thread and didn't have time to respond to it. But there were no responses so it didn't show back up in my subscribed list.

1) Have the price drops hit the 7900 yet...or should i wait a month or two to after the 8800 just got released

2) If I went with the Duo/new motherboard, that'd be like 240 on pricewatch, i dunno if thats the best play to get that kind of deal though

3) Would a 7900 and Duo make a huge difference in my gaming?
I currently play almost all my games on medium settings, low-to-no AA/Bloom, and never go above 1280x resolution....right now im seeing a lot of choppiness in games

4) My cooling system currently is two case fans, and whatever heatsink came with my GPU and CPU, however i keep my case temp according to my case never gets above 82F (right now its about 4 inches away from my subwoofer in the corner, im wondering if i should get a table and plop it ontop so it has more "breathing room")

5) My big, over-arching worry, is that ill update my CPU and that won't be enough my medium-taxing games will still be choppy, or ill update my GPU and same, or worst of all I'll do both and itll STILL be choppy...

1. Prices have dropped steadily and they won't drop much when the new cards come out. They're slowly working their way down as it is. The newer cards will just be more expensive. In other words, I'm not predicting a significant price drop. Top of the line video cards typically cost upwards of $450-500 when they're first released. The 7950 can be had for $250-300 right now. It won't drop much more than that. Some manufacturer's may start to release better mail-in rebates to help push some of the older stuff out though.

2. best "play"? There are a lot of horror stories from using pricewatch. You have to be careful who you order from. I try to stick to my trusted sites and bypass pricewatch altogether.

3. Yes a 7900GT and a core 2 duo will make a huge difference, especially for future games that will take advantage of both cores. You'll be able to increase your resolution and graphics settings. For first person shooters this often means more detail, longer range of vision and smoother screenplay.

4. The cooling on your case isn't the greatest, but it's not bad. You might have to upgrade your case fans or modify your case if the new video card or processor starts to overheat. Shouldn't need to be replaced though.

5. The E6300 rivals the top of the line Pentium D processors. The 960 Presler is a $350 card. The E6300 is $185.
Compare the results for yourself:
AnandTech: Intel's Core 2 Extreme & Core 2 Duo: The Empire Strikes Back
It's the most cost efficient processor upgrade you can do right now.

If you upgrade to this setup you should see a rather large improvement. However, if you have spyware, a bulky registry, etc things could slow down the overall performance of your computer beyond hardware upgrades.

If you've never done a motherboard upgrade before it can be pretty tricky. You'll also end up having to format your harddrive or at least make a new partition to reinstall windows with your new drivers. It's time consuming if you've never done it before. You can expect to spend a day doing the upgrades and reinstalling your programs.

f4phantom2500 · 12-03-2006, 03:30 AM

Ok, Thorgrim:

If you want to upgrade cheap now, and you haven't figured it out yet, here's what I would do:

Get a motherboard with the P (or G) 965 chipset, one that overclocks well ($110~$150), a Pentium D 805 (~$90), maybe a good aftermarket heatsink for it ($20~$30), and whatever video card you want (7900/X19x0 series [$150~$250]). I just cruised newegg a bit (probably go with newegg; they're prices might be a few dollars higher [usually pretty good anyway], but their customer service and reputability is definitely worth it), and I found a couple of cards to consider:

If you want to get the cheapest good card and don't mind a mail-in rebate [decent price/performance even before rebate] rebate:

Newegg.com - XFX GeForce 7900GS PVT71PUQF3 Video Card - Retail

the 7900GS typically overclocks like a beast (I've read reviews where they get about a 1/3 overclock), and although it's not good for it's original $200 price point these days, for $140 it's a STEAL, that's encroaching on 7600GT turf!

From there, you could get an X1900 GT for $160

Newegg.com - SAPPHIRE Radeon X1900GT 100189L VIVO HDCP Video Card - Retail

If you want a better card, be prepared to shell out about $200 for a 7900GT or X1950 Pro. Honestly, this is pretty much as good as it gets because after this point you'll be paying at least like $50 more for a better card (X1950 XT is your best bet).

Some people will tell you that one will be worth the extra cost over the other, things like that, but the truth is you need to do the research yourself and see which card runs the games you play best for a reasonable price (these are currently the most reasonable deals [at least on newegg]). And, really, I would just get the 7900GS, as it's a decent card at stock (~7800GT performance), overclocks like mad, and can be had for a mere $140. Some would say the X1900GT is worth the extra cost, because "a heavily overclocked 7900GS barely touches it", but really, it depends on the game. Others will say that a 7900GT obliterates an X1900GT (others disagree), and that the X1950 is better/worse than the 7900GT so have an opinion over which is worth the $200 you'd be shelling out for it. But, again, it's your call.

If you do what I've recommended, you can overclock the processor to hell and back, and still have the option to upgrade to a Core cpu later. Quad core won't come into play for quite some time; dual core has been around for quite awhile and not until the past few months has it really come into play for gaming, and a heavily overclocked Pentium D 805 will do you good. As far as video card, well...do the research to see which is best for you for the price (or just "settle" on the cheap 7900GS and overclock it if it's not enough [come on, 7800GT performance not enough? You're coming from a 6600GT! Hell, I'm still using my 9800 non pro]).

As has been stated, your current motherboard can NOT support any dual core processors [even though it is pin compatible]. Also, you seem to be a bit confused on exactly how a dual-core processor works and its benefits in gaming. Simply multiplying the clock speed by the number of cores will not give you an accurate representation of how a multi-core processor will perform. The architecture of your Pentium 4 is radically different from that of a Core CPU, for one thing, so you could not gauge its performance relative to yours based on clock speed alone, as it is a more efficient architecture and would outperform your Pentium even at a significantly lower clock speed (similarly to how a slower Athlon can outperform a Pentium).

As for gaming benefits, you see, when dual-core CPU's were first available, they were not advantageous in gaming applications, as no games were multi-threaded (optimized for dual-cores). What multi-threading does is allows a program to be broken up into "chunks", allowing multiple processor cores to process different parts of the game at the same time. A standard single-threaded application (most games) can only run through one processor core, so in such an instance a multi-core CPU is not advantageous, and since there weren't enough dual-core owners to warrant coding games to take advantage of the second core, they didn't! However, since they are so cheap and common now, they have started to make games multi-threaded, taking advantage of the second core that many CPU's now possess. Yet they are only optimized for dual-cores thus far, and you would have to wait until quad-cores are as common as dual-core CPU's are today, at which point they would start to code most games for it, to benefit from one...so a couple of years at best. So don't get caught up on quad-core.

Anyway, yeah, hope that cleared some things up.

Oh, yeah, about your monitor...the reason that it can't support higher resolutions isn't because it's old; my monitor's older than yours and supports higher resolutions. The reason is because that's the resolution that's the monitor's optimal resolution. Notice how if you put it at 1024x768 or something at that ratio that everything looks distorted? That's why. 1280x1024 is 5:4 and 1024x768 (as well as 1280x960, 1600x1200, etc) are 4:3, and are typically used as the optimal resolution for CRT's. There are also widescreen ratios (e.g. 1440x900)...but yeah, basically don't worry about it. In fact, I would be glad that my monitor's native resolution is so low (relatively), because you don't have to worry about getting a video card that can run games really well at 1800x1440 or 2560x2040 or any such thing, just know that a game will look good at 1280x1024 and that your card will be able to 'focus' more on pumping out the framerates and effects than pumping out the pixels (at least that's how I'd look at it, a blessing not a curse).

So, new processor, mobo, graphics card, reuse everything else; you could easily get by for less than $400 with a great system.

WHEW, that was MUCH longer than I originally anticipated, but I hope this clears some things up for you and helps you out with your upgrade plans. Any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

NOTE: There are a few, what I feel are logical, reasons why I'm recommending the Pentium D 805:

1. you still get the benefits of a dual core processor
2. it's very very cheap (which seems like what you're looking for)
3. it overclocks like mad (upper 3 GHz range not uncommon)
4. you can get a motherboard for it that will also support a Core 2 CPU (upgrade later on)
5. you won't feel as reluctant to upgrade in a year or two (or whenever...maybe when the quad-cores really start showing up the Core 2 Duo's will take a big price hit?)

If it weren't for any of these points I would wholeheartedly recommend a Core 2 processor, and if you are willing to shell out the extra cash (at least a 100% increase), by all means go for it, because the Core 2 processors overclock extremely well too, and are more efficient, would perform even better, put out less heat, etc etc; many benefits over a Pentium D. The real question is whether it's all worth the extra $90 to you...even so many people would recommend opting for the e6400 over the 6300 because its higher multiplier allows for substantially higher overclocks, which is even more money.

Ok...this is the end...really this time.

EDIT: Ooooh, I just thought of something...how fast is your RAM? What make/model is it? It might hold you back if you try to overclock a processor. Erm...hm...you may want to go for the Core 2 just in case (if you can't overclock, you still end up with a very fast CPU).