So when is the "Libertarian year"

[Ardentfrost]

Those of us who offer up suggestions and critisisms of legislation on the floor of vying for something... what we want may never get put into a bill, but we have our reasons why we want other legislations voted down.

And I don't even know why you're complaining so much... I have defended your position a lot, and I have gone against your opinion a lot. To a libertarian, republicans and democrats are both right and wrong (although, republicans have started missing the boat a lot... I'm hoping they go back to being better).

Libertarians are the bridge between you and ballz2wallz

[Dumpy Dooby]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Didn't say that, I said Libertarian candidates in general

And what a bunch of a junk with the "libertarian ideals", pleaes, lets make this so abstract that everyone is a libertarian

Oh please.
The "Republican" party stems from "republic."
The "Democratic" party stems from "democracy."
The "Libertarian" party stems from "libertarianism."

It's not fucking complicated, and it's not about being inclusivistic.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

Those of us who offer up suggestions and critisisms of legislation on the floor of vying for something... what we want may never get put into a bill, but we have our reasons why we want other legislations voted down.

And I don't even know why you're complaining so much... I have defended your position a lot, and I have gone against your opinion a lot. To a libertarian, republicans and democrats are both right and wrong (although, republicans have started missing the boat a lot... I'm hoping they go back to being better).

Libertarians are the bridge between you and ballz2wallz

Look at hsmith's post...excellent example

It's either throwing rocks at someone else's idea
Or defending your own by just goin "oh you just dont get it man, haha you only wish you were cool enough to unlock the secrets of becoming a libertarian"

After the whole Tom Cruise thing, I found Scientologists and Libertarians act very similiar

[Diamond Cross]

So they're actually Scientarians? Libertologists?

[hsmith]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Look at hsmith's post...excellent example

It's either throwing rocks at someone else's idea
Or defending your own by just goin "oh you just dont get it man, haha you only wish you were cool enough to unlock the secrets of becoming a libertarian"

After the whole Tom Cruise thing, I found Scientologists and Libertarians act very similiar

you are worthless to argue with, so what is the point?

you refuse to understand what you talk about so it really makes no point

go on, continue to be misinformed and spread your "thoughts" on what libertarianism is. you would be worth talking to if you actually had any basis in reality to your opinions. but they are all conjecture to waht you "think" libertarians think and their position are. your "opinions" on libertarians are about as grounded as arguing the democratic party are all socialists.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by hsmith

you are worthless to argue with, so what is the point?

you refuse to understand what you talk about so it really makes no point

go on, continue to be misinformed and spread your "thoughts" on what libertarianism is. you would be worth talking to if you actually had any basis in reality to your opinions. but they are all conjecture to waht you "think" libertarians think and their position are. your "opinions" on libertarians are about as grounded as arguing the democratic party are all socialists.

LAUER: TOM CRUISE CREATED A FIRESTORM WHEN HE CRITICIZED BROOKE SHIELDS FOR REVEALING THAT SHE WENT INTO THERAPY AND TOOK ANTIDEPRESSANTS TO DEAL WITH HER POST PARTUM DEPRESSION. AS A SCIENTOLGIST, HE DOESN'T BELIEVE IN PSYCHIATRIC MEDICINE. I ASKED HIM ABOUT HIS COMMENTS.


CRUISE: I've never agreed with psychiatry, ever. Before I was a Scientologist I never agreed with psychiatry. And when i started studying the history of psychiatry, I understood more and more why I didn't believe in psychology.

And as far as the Brooke Shields thing is, look. You gotta understand, I really care about Brooke Shields. I-- I think here's a-- a-- a wonderful and talented woman. And-- I wanna see her do well. And I know that-- psychiatry is-- is a pseudo science.


MATT LAUER: But-- but Tom, if she said that this particular thing helped her feel better, whether it was the antidepressant or going to a counselor or psychiatrist, isn't that enough?


TOM CRUISE: Matt, you have to understand this. Here we are today where I talk out against drugs and psychiatric abuses of electric shocking people, okay, against their will, of drugging children with them not knowing the effects of these drugs. Do you know what Aderol is? Do you know Ritalin? Do you know now that Ritalin is a street drug? Do you understand that?


MATT LAUER: The difference is-- (OVERTALK)


TOM CRUISE: No, no, Matt.


MATT LAUER: This wasn't against her will, though.


TOM CRUISE: Matt-- Matt, Matt, Matt--


MATT LAUER: But this wasn't against her will.


TOM CRUISE: Matt, I'm-- Matt, I'm asking you a question.


MATT LAUER: I understand there's abuse of all of these things.


TOM CRUISE: No, you see. Here's the problem. You don't know the history of psychiatry. I do.

[Diamond Cross]

I'd like to grill Tom Cruise on his alledged expertise of psychology.

The thing to keep in mind here is L. Ron Hubbard ideals is not accepted by mainstream Psychology. Before he became this Scientology guru he took his ideas and tried to get them accepted but was pretty much written off as a quack. He was pretty bitter about it, so he started the Scientology movement.

[KatKanPlay]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

Greed is natural, and that very innate desire for self allows for predictions for masses of people. Not that the selfless people don't get factored in, they do, but as a base case, you say that people are naturally greedy. This allows you to come to the conclusion that if you distribute wealth, you take away the reason naturally successful people push for success: money. ie. distributing wealth causes a slowing of the economy because people who WOULD be striving for success and driving the economy with innovation or whatever else just do what they have to in order to maximize money and minimize time spent making that money.

Communism exemplifies this pretty well. Of course, authoritarian practices can force the citizens into submission, but no one wants to live like that. And just because China has been able to hold on to that style of gov't for so long certainly doesn't make it right. Far more times than not, the people rebel against those gov'ts.

But I don't think you're promoting communism... however, The Road to Serfdom really does explain well how socialist tendancies are a very slippery slope with the ultimate end being authoritarianism.

I see what you are saying and can say I agree. However, what scares me about Libertarians and Republicans is the whole greed factor. Greed breeds corruption, corruption tilts the balance of power. Without checks and balances in a society, greed left unchecked or regulated will also create an authoritarian society. The power in that society will be made up of wealthy dynasties that for its own preservation will have to throw up walls that stop the pursuit of happiness with liberty and justice for all.

Greed may be natural, but it requires boundaries to keep the playing field even. Sex is natural but it also requires boundaries to keep the playing field even.

[hsmith]

you do realize the system we have now breeds corruption. a powerful government means that rich greedy corporations can buy (and DO BUY) laws and protection from the massive government.

in a libertarian "dream world" this isn't the case because corporations can't do anything they can't get you to do on your own free will.

the government and their agents are the greedy deadly ones, not walmart.

everyone "against" libertarianism in this thread because "corporations" are "starting wars" is making the case FOR a libertarian styled government!

[motivez]

Please keep comments on topic and not on other users

Thanks

[KatKanPlay]

Originally Posted by hsmith

you do realize the system we have now breeds corruption. a powerful government means that rich greedy corporations can buy (and DO BUY) laws and protection from the massive government.

in a libertarian "dream world" this isn't the case because corporations can't do anything they can't get you to do on your own free will.

the government and their agents are the greedy deadly ones, not walmart.

Of course I realize that, and I for one think we need to take steps to stop this, however, the powerful money behind government wont allow it. And many in this country seem to be okay with this. That is basically my point. Just because that is the way it is doesnt mean we should be okay with the status quo. Corporations used to have specific mandates under which they could operate in order to assure they did not grow to a point that allowed them governmental control. The growth of the "corporate citizen" exceptance is as the result of pure judicial manipulation. It happened because no one was really paying attention.

http://www.gangsofamerica.com/gangsofamerica.pdf

Its a long read, but very enlightening as to how we are where we are. It is also very disturbing that this has been allowed to happen.


I dont happen to buy into the idea that we have the best government money can buy because I know that as an individual citizen, Im going to be on the losing end.
I dont believe government should be allowed to be bought. I dont believe the money power behind the government has any interest in the individual citizenry of this country, in fact I believe it is just the opposite. The attitude that "this is my money, my power and I dont owe anyone anything" is wrong when you consider that to attain this money, you had to use OUR democratic system in order to get it. Once this money and power is acheived it then becomes a focused fight to change the democracy that gave it to you to a democracy that declares you have every right to keep it no matter the means. The huge corporate powers that prevail in this country will do its best to be sure that the pursuit of happiness becomes the pursuit to simply make ends meet.

[Ardentfrost]

Thor, What I think is weird is that you call out Libertarians when we take the position of classic conservatives (ie. most of the republican party) on issues you get called out on the most.

Then when you talk about stuff like the rights of gays or immigrants and other shit, we're right there backing you up (though, I'll admit sometimes we prefer different methods than you, but the basis is often the same).

All I'm saying is that although libertarians say things that neither mainstream party agrees with (legalization of all drugs, abolishment of taxes and doe, etc...), not everything is irrelevant to the modern state of politics.

But excuse us if we get aggitated sometimes you've had your share of getting aggitated with the direction of politics

[Thorgrim]

My point was not to say "libertarians are all idiots lol"

I was merely pointing out the obvious, that libertarians (not the Libertarian Party!) have had dozens of chances and over a decade of elections to get their voices heard, and I wondered why...

After everyone dodging the issue and refusing to answer it, it appears ever more likely that libertarians are simply too lazy and too cheap, and that is the root of their problems. Rather than confront that issue, they'd rather take the easy road, basically quit, blame the political system, and make posts on the internet in their leisuire time

You know, I log on to World of Warcraft and pretend to be a powerful mage, libertarians log on to their ISP and pretend to be great saviors of the republic...its all fun...don't dis my roleplaying and I'm not gonna dis you