Democrats planning for Iraq withdrawal

ballz2wallz · 11-12-2006, 06:59 PM

Well, it seems they are planning on pulling the troops out anyway. They are trying to avoid the 'cut and run' label by withdrawing them over time, even though a very short period of time.

Vietnam II

Diamond Cross · 11-12-2006, 07:01 PM

They're simply responding to the wishes of the nation. Iraq has become unpopular.

As for me I have mixed feelings about this. It's a good thing they're being brought home, but the job over there isn't finished.

ballz2wallz · 11-12-2006, 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by Diamond Cross

They're simply responding to the wishes of the nation. Iraq has become unpopular.

I don't think any president of this country should make their decisions based on the polls.

I think our withdrawal and subsequent world-view of Iraq as a failure will bring greater problems in the future, near and far.

Kytro · 11-12-2006, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

I don't think any president of this country should make their decisions based on the polls.

I think our withdrawal and subsequent world-view of Iraq as a failure will bring greater problems in the future, near and far.

The problem is the president is only part of the government so he must work with the rest of the government. If the war is unpopular and people were elected on an agenda of pulling out troops you can expect it will be pursued.

The president should be basing his decisions on advice from experts on how to achieve set goals.

I would prefer that troops are not withdrawn however I do not believe the US has what it takes to do what needs to be done to turn Iraq into a better place. So I prefer troops are withdrawn that to have them endlessly killed.

ballz2wallz · 11-12-2006, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by Kytro

The problem is the president is only part of the government so he must work with the rest of the government. If the war is unpopular and people were elected on an agenda of pulling out troops you can expect it will be pursued.

The president should be basing his decisions on advice from experts on how to achieve set goals.

I would prefer that troops are not withdrawn however I do not believe the US has what it takes to do what needs to be done to turn Iraq into a better place. So I prefer troops are withdrawn that to have them endlessly killed.

And if the experts, not the people, say we should stay, should they pull them out anyway?

Kytro · 11-12-2006, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

And if the experts, not the people, say we should stay, should they pull them out anyway?

If the experts believe we can meet the goals by staying then, yes the troops should stay.

In order to do this though, the goals must be well-defined, and the probable costs factored in.

The issue in the past has be ill-formed goals and denial of problems.

If you don't have goals and milestones, along with checking of said milestones then how can you expect to succeed?

motivez · 11-12-2006, 09:09 PM

The troops aren't going to be withdrawn, they're going to be redeployed in Iraq to strategic locations instead of in the middle of the civil war we've created.

That's even if the President takes their advice, but from my understanding.. the Baker commission, which is essentially a bunch of Bush Sr's folks are going to wind up recommending the exact same thing Murtha did 8 months ago.

DosEquis · 11-12-2006, 09:30 PM

the context of this thread is horribly misleading

Nonphixion · 11-12-2006, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Well, it seems they are planning on pulling the troops out anyway. They are trying to avoid the 'cut and run' label by withdrawing them over time, even though a very short period of time.

Vietnam II

Vietnam II; because from the beginning this war was waged from an air-conditioned room in the White House instead of by generals on the ground.

Operation Iraqi Freedom was waged essentially as did in Vietnam, and it spelled our failure both times.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 11-12-2006, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

I think our withdrawal and subsequent world-view of Iraq as a failure will bring greater problems in the future, near and far.

I agree. However, I also think Iraq being a failure is inevitable, so I'd rather cut our losses sooner than later. If Iraq, after 4 years, can't take care of its own security, then there's no reason to think it will in 10 or 20. We're fucked either way. It's a lost cause. We might as well minimize the damage by getting out now.

Donkey® · 11-12-2006, 11:45 PM

Good, pull them out, we're not going to "win" anything anyway. Ever.

nbiggershaft · 11-13-2006, 02:14 AM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

I agree. However, I also think Iraq being a failure is inevitable, so I'd rather cut our losses sooner than later. If Iraq, after 4 years, can't take care of its own security, then there's no reason to think it will in 10 or 20. We're fucked either way. It's a lost cause. We might as well minimize the damage by getting out now.

I'd say it would be more suprising to think that we could radically change the country in just 4 years. I'd imagine this sort of things takes whole generations to stabilize. That's not to say we should necessarly put in that much time and money, but I think the short time or never people are wrong.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 11-13-2006, 03:08 AM

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

I'd say it would be more suprising to think that we could radically change the country in just 4 years. I'd imagine this sort of things takes whole generations to stabilize. That's not to say we should necessarly put in that much time and money, but I think the short time or never people are wrong.

Okay, then let me ask you...what is the delay with the soldiers and police? What is taking so long for them to "stand up so we can stand down"? The original excuse was that it was simply a logistical problem...training takes time, need to equip them, etc. But after 4 years, that excuse is looking pretty implausible.

It doesn't take 4 years to train a soldier, no where near that, nor does it take that long to create a cop. There are deeper problems here than lack of training. It's that Iraqis don't want to fight for the state of "Iraq"-- that odd concept that the Americans are pushing, and that foreign powers concocted during the past century. They want to fight for their religious sect and tribe, which is incompatible with our unified, nationalistic vision for the country. This is why you see Iraqi soldiers abandoning their posts, going AWOL and sectarian agents infiltrating the ranks. 30-50% of Iraqi troops are actually AWOL at any one time. That's fucking absurd, for a volunteer army, no less! These people do not care about the cause we're fighting for!

If this is really the root cause of why they can't get their act together, then there is no reason to think they ever will get their act together. Religious and sectarian differences that have been dividing the people for hundreds of years are not going to disappear any time soon, if ever.

nbiggershaft · 11-13-2006, 04:03 AM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

If this is really the root cause of why they can't get their act together, then there is no reason to think they ever will get their act together. Religious and sectarian differences that have been dividing the people for hundreds of years are not going to disappear any time soon, if ever.

I really doubt you can say that with any more certainty than I could say they will definitely liberalize. We can both agree though, that this problem, which I think we see eye to eye that it is one of the major problems, is not something that can be fixed in a short period of time. I'd say most probably, if you could expose children to a liberal culture for the majority of their lives, educate and provide jobs, there is no real reason Iraqi muslims couldn't be any different than American muslims in a few generations. But all those things are a bit hard to accomplish with people kicking and screaming the whole way.

Scrum · 11-13-2006, 09:22 AM

Good. Our troops should get out of that civil war.

Lets get let people fight their own war. We should work as diplomats now.

And this thread title is misleading.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 11-13-2006, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

I'd say most probably, if you could expose children to a liberal culture for the majority of their lives, educate and provide jobs, there is no real reason Iraqi muslims couldn't be any different than American muslims in a few generations.

The next generation of Iraqis is also screwed.

Article display page - theday.com

Our little experiment in liberalizing the country has killed over 100,000 people, and caused anyone educated and/or with money to flee the country. All that's left are bitter people who hate us.

I find the idea of Iraqis embracing our wishes a bit absurd. How receptive would you be to a country that invaded us, killed 100,000 civilians, and then told us how to run our country? You really think the children witnessing this can be swayed to the occupier's side?

ballz2wallz · 11-13-2006, 04:16 PM

Via Ace of Spades:

They're also pushing for troop withdrawals to begin in 4-6 months.

Horrible. If you're going to withdraw, withdraw them all immediately. This "phased withdrawal" is just a half-assed way to get more troops killed -- and while pursuing a strategy of defeat and surrender to boot.

But an immediate withdrawal would be too politically unpopular. Better to kill some more troops in a war you've decided to surrender on than risk losing too much party approval rating.

Thorgrim · 11-13-2006, 05:17 PM

That's one of the dumbest things i've ever seen posted...instead of coming home in an orderly manner in 6 months, lets have everyone run to Kuwait and leave behind their gear and whoever gets on the boat first gets home first!!

Scrum · 11-13-2006, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

That's one of the dumbest things i've ever seen posted...instead of coming home in an orderly manner in 6 months, lets have everyone run to Kuwait and leave behind their gear and whoever gets on the boat first gets home first!!

These guys lost the election and now they will cry over any decision made.

DosEquis · 11-13-2006, 05:51 PM

I dont understand this talk of surrender. Last time i looked we already won and the people fighting are primarily factions of shia vs sunni, and when they are not shooting at each other they shoot at us for occupying their country. As far as I am concerned we already won. We defeated the republican guard, saddam hussein, his sons, etc. The former dictator is gone and we have given them independence. They can fight for control with the government we installed as a platform. To think we won't support that government is silly. In the end after 15,000+ die and they are tired of fighting they might reach some sort of comprimise, most likely anti-american.