Private School - Our only reasonable option.

[The Great Catpiss]

What happens to English speaking school kids who live near a sanctuary city (cities that celebrate and protect illegal immigrants)? Well, we just found out. The kids must learn Spanish as the classes are taught in Spanish and will likely underperform. I was told that this doesn't happen. I was told it was illegal. It does in fact happen, and it is legal due to a technicality.

We live in a nice neighborhood with two highly rated schools half a block from us in either direction. Unfortunately, our daughter is assigned to a pretty terrible school in a not so good neighborhood.

The school teaches the classes in both English and Spanish. It's called a dual immersion program. If we send my daughter there, she must learn Spanish. Some classes such as science are taught only in Spanish. The goal is to get the Spanish speaking kids to learn English and boost the Spanish speaking kids scores. It does well with that. Where it doesn't do well is in academic performance. The school is so poorly rated that it falls into a special category under the no child left behind act. Due to it's very low scores, the state must provide free tutors and the ability for any student to transfer out to another school in the district, if they so choose.

We contacted the two public schools nearby and they stated they have a 2 year waiting list for new students making transfers not a possibility.

It looks like we are going to have to send our child to private school until we buy a new house further away.

[stolz25]

This is one of the many reasons sane people don't go near California, no matter how nice the weather is.

[SonicBoom]

Originally Posted by stolz25

This is one of the many reasons sane people don't go near California, no matter how nice the weather is.

Mexico is taking her back.

[stolz25]

Originally Posted by SonicBoom

Mexico is taking her back.

That may be the most recent problem in California, but it's hardly the first.

[CharlieK]

Its a total shame to see our education system deteriorate so badly. Like it or not, is it like H.L. Mencken stated a long time ago. The system is set up to keep citizens just educated enough, so as to be pliant little citizens. Too much education and the system will be in trouble.

I've stated over at Jane many times that the traditionalist oriented citizens, who revere our Constitution, are going to have to reclaim the educations system and the courts, or we will never be able to regain what we have lost already.

"That erroneous assumption is to the effect that the aim of public education is to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence, and so make them fit to discharge the duties of citizenship in an enlightened and independent manner. Nothing could be further from the truth.

"The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all, it is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States, whatever the pretensions of politicians, pedagogues and other such mountebanks, and that is its aim everywhere else."

--H L. Mencken

[The Great Catpiss]

I heard that more than half of the kids that go to that school are children of illegal immigrants. The city welcomes illegal immigrants with open arms and calls themselves a sanctuary city. Regardless of whether we should provide those children education or not, the situation does directly and negatively impact us.

[David]

I'm not denying there are problems but having classes taught in Spanish in the #2 Spanish speaking nation (only SPAIN has more Spanish speakers) seems like a good idea.

[CharlieK]

Originally Posted by David

I'm not denying there are problems but having classes taught in Spanish in the #2 Spanish speaking nation (only SPAIN has more Spanish speakers) seems like a good idea.

On the face, it is easy to see this. However, had you ever studied Frederic Bastiat, you would know more about the importance of the 'unseen' in all situations. Its the things you don't see that are far more important than the readily apparent.

[stolz25]

Originally Posted by CharlieK

On the face, it is easy to see this. However, had you ever studied Frederic Bastiat, you would know more about the importance of the 'unseen' in all situations. Its the things you don't see that are far more important than the readily apparent.

No... Bastiat said you can't ignore the unseen, not that it's far more important.

[The Great Catpiss]

Originally Posted by David

I'm not denying there are problems but having classes taught in Spanish in the #2 Spanish speaking nation (only SPAIN has more Spanish speakers) seems like a good idea.

It works out for the people who speak Spanish. They end up getting better grades than they would otherwise. For the same reason that it helps them, it hurts the other kids who don't speak the language. We end up punishing the kids that speak English.

I bring this up as I have heard many people tell me that this doesn't happen.

I could be wrong. There could be many other reasons that these schools underperform. Mexican kids generally don't do well in school. I am betting that it has something to do with their culture. The schools need to cater to these kids and focus more resources on them, which holds the rest of the students back. Bad students also slow other kids down by setting bad examples.

Why not teach the classes in Vietnamese as there is a huge poor Vietnamese population here? The simple answer is that Vietnamese kids learn English pretty quickly and actually do much better in school.

[David]

Originally Posted by The Great Catpiss

It works out for the people who speak Spanish. They end up getting better grades than they would otherwise. For the same reason that it helps them, it hurts the other kids who don't speak the language. We end up punishing the kids that speak English.

I bring this up as I have heard many people tell me that this doesn't happen.

I could be wrong. There could be many other reasons that these schools underperform. Mexican kids generally don't do well in school. I am betting that it has something to do with their culture. The schools need to cater to these kids and focus more resources on them, which holds the rest of the students back. Bad students also slow other kids down by setting bad examples.

Why not teach the classes in Vietnamese as there is a huge poor Vietnamese population here? The simple answer is that Vietnamese kids learn English pretty quickly and actually do much better in school.

And none of this changes the fact that we have more Spanish speakers then Latin America. People need to start recognizing 2 facts:
1. America is a majority white (something that won't last) Latin American nation and has been for about a century.
2. Most (albeit not by an overwhelming majority) Spanish speakers aren't immigrants and most are in fact native American English speakers who speak Spanish as a 2nd language.

As I said, problems do exist so I'm not going to challenge the rest of your point but teaching classes in a language that students actually understand is hardly a bad thing. Anyone who thinks it is is an idiot who is ignoring the 2 above facts.

[The Great Catpiss]

Originally Posted by David

And none of this changes the fact that we have more Spanish speakers then Latin America. People need to start recognizing 2 facts:
1. America is a majority white (something that won't last) Latin American nation and has been for about a century.
2. Most (albeit not by an overwhelming majority) Spanish speakers aren't immigrants and most are in fact native American English speakers who speak Spanish as a 2nd language.

As I said, problems do exist so I'm not going to challenge the rest of your point but teaching classes in a language that students actually understand is hardly a bad thing. Anyone who thinks it is is an idiot who is ignoring the 2 above facts.

I don't know how either "fact" listed above matters. My kids are not white. They speak English as their first language.

I do think it would be great for ESL people to learn in immersion programs if the resources are available. Forcing other kids into those programs is terrible. Creating situations where kids must get on a 2 year waiting list to go to a public school is just terrible.

[David]

Originally Posted by The Great Catpiss

I don't know how either "fact" listed above matters. My kids are not white. They speak English as their first language.

I do think it would be great for ESL people to learn in immersion programs if the resources are available. Forcing other kids into those programs is terrible. Creating situations where kids must get on a 2 year waiting list to go to a public school is just terrible.

That's kind of my point.

Who said anything about forcing?

[CharlieK]

Originally Posted by stolz25

No... Bastiat said you can't ignore the unseen, not that it's far more important.

You're being overly technical here.

Its the things that you don't see that always come up and bite you in the butt. And they are the things that always seem to be overlooked, just like the Broken Window Fallacy.

Even that ferret faced fellow at the NYTimes, who passes himself off as an economist, did this very thing a couple of years ago. What a moron. And he's such a smug, and arrogant little twerp. I just want to reach out and slap the Shit out of him, every time see him on TV.

[stolz25]

Originally Posted by CharlieK

You're being overly technical here.

Its the things that you don't see that always come up and bite you in the butt. And they are the things that always seem to be overlooked, just like the Broken Window Fallacy.

Yes, I understand Bastiat, and this doesn't change my earlier statement. They bite you in the butt not because they are more important (in some cases they are, others they aren't), but because they went unconsidered.

Originally Posted by CharlieK

Even that ferret faced fellow at the NYTimes, who passes himself off as an economist, did this very thing a couple of years ago. What a moron. And he's such a smug, and arrogant little twerp. I just want to reach out and slap the Shit out of him, every time see him on TV.

I imagine this is common among austrian followers.

[CharlieK]

Actually I'm somewhere between the Supply-Side school, and the Austrian one. Perhaps now a little bit more on the Austrian side. I happen to be a huge von Hayek fan for more than his Austrian thinking. He was an avid opponent of Collectivism, and consider "The Road To Serfdom" one of the most important works of the 20th century.

The main reason why I have shifted toward the Austrian school is because I have come to see that we can not grow our way out of this terrible hole that both Bush and Obama have gotten us into. It is going to require hard choices. In other words, we have to cut spending and start creating a surplus to use for paying down out debt.


As for the part about the 'unseen' being more important than the 'seen', I'll take that back. Lets say "most of the time" ok?

[Carter Raines]

Originally Posted by The Great Catpiss

What happens to English speaking school kids who live near a sanctuary city (cities that celebrate and protect illegal immigrants)? Well, we just found out. The kids must learn Spanish as the classes are taught in Spanish and will likely underperform. I was told that this doesn't happen. I was told it was illegal. It does in fact happen, and it is legal due to a technicality.

We live in a nice neighborhood with two highly rated schools half a block from us in either direction. Unfortunately, our daughter is assigned to a pretty terrible school in a not so good neighborhood.

The school teaches the classes in both English and Spanish. It's called a dual immersion program. If we send my daughter there, she must learn Spanish. Some classes such as science are taught only in Spanish. The goal is to get the Spanish speaking kids to learn English and boost the Spanish speaking kids scores. It does well with that. Where it doesn't do well is in academic performance. The school is so poorly rated that it falls into a special category under the no child left behind act. Due to it's very low scores, the state must provide free tutors and the ability for any student to transfer out to another school in the district, if they so choose.

We contacted the two public schools nearby and they stated they have a 2 year waiting list for new students making transfers not a possibility.

It looks like we are going to have to send our child to private school until we buy a new house further away.

I'd really prefer to see some link to this. Some proof in documents that this exists.

[CharlieK]

Originally Posted by Carter Raines

I'd really prefer to see some link to this. Some proof in documents that this exists.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe he is speaking there from personal experience.

[The Great Catpiss]

Originally Posted by Carter Raines

I'd really prefer to see some link to this. Some proof in documents that this exists.

Personal experience. No documents necessary. It's the bullshit that I have to go through. Now I must go out of my way to take my child to a private school that isn't nearby. It will cost me $12,000 per year, so I am not taking it lightly. I'd rather send them to a public school that I pay for with taxes.

There are two very nice highly rated schools within about 100 yards of us. Unfortunately, they have 2 year waiting lists and lotteries for students to get in. We must take our child to a bad school in a bad neighborhood.

I don't think it's something you would find on MSNBC as they don't cover this type of stuff. I wont link to my area or school, but I'll throw you some bones with some quick google searches on the topic. (You could have done this as well, but I understand some people are either lazy or haven't heard about Google yet.)

Do you not believe that dual immersion schools exist? Here is an article from LA Times in 2003:
Dual-Immersion Is a Success in Santa Ana, Educators Say - Los Angeles Times

Santa Ana's dual-immersion, or two-way, approach mixes native English and Spanish speakers in the same classrooms so they serve as models for their peers as they learn each other's language. Critics say the program is a poorly disguised version of bilingual education since the Santa Ana program has many more Spanish speakers than native English ones.

Since the program started in Santa Ana six years ago, the first group of students to learn under the system is headed this fall to middle school, where they will take science and literature courses in Spanish and their other classes in English.

The school in the article may have been successful in 2003, but lets see how it is performing on it's website (below).

Do you not believe that some schools under-perform and what the consequences are? Here is information from the website of the school in that article:
Jefferson Academic Achievement / Program Improvement

Because Jefferson is in stage (year) 2 of PI, parents of students have two options. They can enroll their children in different schools in the district. ... Their children are also entitled to free tutoring.

PI is a probation that should be taken seriously:
Stage 1: Grants students the right to choose another school.
Stage 2: Students have the right to free tutoring in addition to the option to change schools.
Stage 3,4,5: The last three stages can result in a change of staff and leadership, the conversion of the school to charter status, transferring the school to another district, or even the school’s closure.

[Donkey®]

The idea is good...the execution seems poor.