South Africa legalizes gay marriage

hsmith · 11-15-2006, 05:54 PM

Pretty sad when South Africa does more to protect peoples rights than the United States I must say.

Than again, I am not for gay "marriage" i am for gay "unions" as marriage is a church insititution.

but whatever.

South Africa approves gay marriage bill - Yahoo! Canada News

CAPE TOWN (AFP) - South Africa became the first country on the continent to legalise same sex marriages as the government vowed to to banish discrimination in its all forms after the downfall of apartheid.
ADVERTISEMENT

After an often heated debate, 230 lawmakers gave their final approval to the civil union bill while 41 opposed it. There were three abstentions.

"In breaking with our past ... we need to fight and resist all forms of discrimination and prejudice, including homophobia," Home Affairs Minister Nosiviwe Mapisa-Nqakula told MPs in Cape Town.

"When we attained our democracy, we sought to distinguish ourselves from an unjust painful past, by declaring that never again shall it be that any South African will be discriminated against on the basis of colour, creed, culture and sex," she added.

After the end of the apartheid era in 1994, during which black South Africans were denied the vote, a new constitution was drawn up specifically banning discrimination on the grounds of race, gender and sexual orientation.

The government was forced to legislate on same sex marriage after the country's highest court ruled in December that existing laws denied gays and lesbians the same constitutional rights as heterosexual couples.

The bill which was approved on Tuesday is more liberal than an original draft, and provides explicitly for gays and lesbians to marry.

The overwhelming vote was guaranteed by the unanimous support of the ruling ANC but the measure was vehemently denounced by smaller conservative parties.

"The ... (bill) justifies immorality and by inference, calls sexual perversion a legitimate alternative lifestyle that should be openly accepted," African Christian Democratic Party (ACDP) leader Kenneth Meshoe said in the pre-vote debate in which he warned of divine wrath.

"God is not mocked," he said. "This parliament ... is about to cross the line of Gods patience with us as a nation."

The main opposition Democratic Alliance (DA) said that it was wrong to have separate laws for gays and lesbians and that all forms of marriage should be regulated in one piece of legislation.

The DA, which allowed its members a free vote, also criticised the ANC for issuing a whip to its members to vote en masse for the legislation.

"As a nation, we have a long way to go to eradicate discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation," said DA lawmaker Sandy Kalyan.

The measure however was welcomed by the gay and lesbian campaigners as an historic step forwards.

The Joint Working Group, a national network of 17 lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender organisations said it "signals a rejection of previous attempts to render lesbian and gay people as second class citizens".

"It demonstrates powerfully the commitment of our lawmakers to ensuring that all human beings are treated with dignity," its spokesman Fikile Vilakazi added in a statement.

The bill will now be sent to the National Council of Provinces for concurrence, largely a formality, before being rubberstamped by President Thabo Mbeki.

The Constitutional Court judgment requires the law to come into force by December 1.

Gays and lesbians in Africa are routinely subjected to discrimination and homosexuality is illegal in a number of countries.

Robert Mugabe, president of neigbhouring Zimbabwe, sparked outrage when he described gays as "worse than pigs and dogs" several years ago.

DosEquis · 11-15-2006, 06:02 PM

The gay plague is goin to sweep that nation and giant tsunamis are going to strike the nation as god is so angry with those who put it in the poopers of others.

ballz2wallz · 11-15-2006, 06:06 PM

Is this the same South Africa whose president and health minister denies AIDS as a health problem? Wow, they're champions of thought and ideals in all sorts of subjects!

Yeah, there's a world view from whom we should take after!

Thomas Crown · 11-15-2006, 06:14 PM

I have to LOL at this.

South Africa doing more to protect peoples rights? Give me a break. Until just over a decade ago blacks weren't considered people. They do nothing to protect their population from crime, poverty or disease (HIV/AIDS for starters).

You live in a country that the vast majority do NOT agree with gay marriage. Most of them could give two shits about civil unions. Yet the gay activist groups want to use the word marriage specifically so it can be a rights issue with the big bad conservatives as the villains. This makes no sense.

Regardless, it is a states rights issue. And go figure, when states put it up for vote, it fails. Hmmmm.

We live in a land that is supposed to be governed by the will of the people. The will of the people is that gay marraige not be allowed.

hsmith · 11-15-2006, 06:20 PM

If you would have put abolishing slavery up for vote it would have been voted down as well.

I guess we should have kept that great institution around as well!

hsmith · 11-15-2006, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Is this the same South Africa whose president and health minister denies AIDS as a health problem? Wow, they're champions of thought and ideals in all sorts of subjects!

Yeah, there's a world view from whom we should take after!

Association fallacy.

ballz2wallz · 11-15-2006, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by hsmith

If you would have put abolishing slavery up for vote it would have been voted down as well.

I guess we should have kept that great institution around as well!

The point is, South Africa isn't exactly a bastion of great thought, so I don't know that I'd go around saying we should follow their lead

ballz2wallz · 11-15-2006, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by hsmith

Association fallacy.

How so? They are basically dumb. What makes you think they're suddenly smart on gay marriage?

Thomas Crown · 11-15-2006, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by hsmith

Association fallacy.

You mean the primary line of reasoning for almost any left/liberal argument?

*cough*

Thomas Crown · 11-15-2006, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by hsmith

If you would have put abolishing slavery up for vote it would have been voted down as well.

I guess we should have kept that great institution around as well!

A person being a slave is a FAR cry from someone not being able to marry a person of the same sex.

This is an intellectually dishonest argument on your part, and you know it.

hsmith · 11-15-2006, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by Thomas Crown

A person being a slave is a FAR cry from someone not being able to marry a person of the same sex.

This is an intellectually dishonest argument on your part, and you know it.

You are still denying someone freedom.

It is an intellectually dishonest argument on your part for comparing freedoms of legal rights as well as fair taxation.

hsmith · 11-15-2006, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

The point is, South Africa isn't exactly a bastion of great thought, so I don't know that I'd go around saying we should follow their lead

How is the government granting people rights to fair taxation and legal rights a bad thing?

ballz2wallz · 11-15-2006, 06:27 PM

Marriage is not a right.

hsmith · 11-15-2006, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Marriage is not a right.

Equal protection under the law is.

Thomas Crown · 11-15-2006, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by hsmith

You are still denying someone freedom.

It is an intellectually dishonest argument on your part for comparing freedoms of legal rights as well as fair taxation.

No I'm not.

freedom is a basic human right. Slavery was a violation of that.

Marriage is an institution of man, not a right. If you are catholic and you want to get married, the church can say no.

I am not telling Steve and Steve they can't be together. I am not even telling them that Steve shouldn't get the same spousal rights (I'd vote for civil unions). But I won't vote for an amendment defining a religious institution.

hsmith · 11-15-2006, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by Thomas Crown

No I'm not.

freedom is a basic human right. Slavery was a violation of that.

Marriage is an institution of man, not a right. If you are catholic and you want to get married, the church can say no.

I am not telling Steve and Steve they can't be together. I am not even telling them that Steve shouldn't get the same spousal rights (I'd vote for civil unions). But I won't vote for an amendment defining a religious institution.

Apparently you didn't read the comments I made in the first post.

ballz2wallz · 11-15-2006, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by hsmith

Equal protection under the law is.

And that is not called 'marriage'.

hsmith · 11-15-2006, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

And that is not called 'marriage'.

Marriage is a contract

if i want to enter into a contract with a nother person, who is the gov't to tell me i cannot? who is the gov't to dictate what are valid contracts?

why should gays be taxed different? why should gays not have the same visitation rights?

how is that equal protection? it isn't.

Donkey® · 11-15-2006, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by Thomas Crown

I have to LOL at this.

South Africa doing more to protect peoples rights? Give me a break. Until just over a decade ago blacks weren't considered people. They do nothing to protect their population from crime, poverty or disease (HIV/AIDS for starters).

You live in a country that the vast majority do NOT agree with gay marriage. Most of them could give two shits about civil unions. Yet the gay activist groups want to use the word marriage specifically so it can be a rights issue with the big bad conservatives as the villains. This makes no sense.

Regardless, it is a states rights issue. And go figure, when states put it up for vote, it fails. Hmmmm.

We live in a land that is supposed to be governed by the will of the people. The will of the people is that gay marraige not be allowed.

So it only took them 10 years to realize that treating all people equally is good? Seems more progressive than the US to me. It's been 40 years for us and we still can't seem to do it.

ballz2wallz · 11-15-2006, 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by hsmith

Marriage is a contract

Marriage is a church institution.

I have no problem with civil unions.