Question about abortion and self-ownership

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by DosEquis

I would legalize all natural drugs... the kind that lead no manufacturing such as weed. The shit like meth needs to remain illegal.

Like alcohol ? manufacturing

[DosEquis]

Originally Posted by TheScatman

So IF we ban meth use since it could cause crime, couldnt we ban abortion because it could cause the fetus pain?

Maybe abortion prevents crime, because the kid might grow up to drop out of college, end up broke, and kill the convenient store clerk for $46 and some candy.

[DosEquis]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

Like alcohol ? manufacturing

Alcohol is already legal and is in a whole different boat from things like coke, meth, etc.

[TheScatman]

Originally Posted by 7th Ninjai

As a non drug user myself, it really is that simple to me. I'm personally against drug use and I'm pro-choice, but I don't want to make decisions for other people or have the government make that decision for me. It's your body, do what you will.

exactly

[TheScatman]

Originally Posted by DosEquis

Maybe abortion prevents crime, because the kid might grow up to drop out of college, end up broke, and kill the convenient store clerk for $46 and some candy.

No but I am saying once you start saying "what if" that just logically continues into things you cant prove and that no study can.

can anyone give me what percentage of meth users steal to further their habit? can anyone tell me what percent would in a free market with lower drug prices and treatment more in the open? I dont think anyone can...its useless to make these utilitarian arguments

[Scrum]

I'm for legal abortions and all drugs legalized.

I'm for assisted suicide and the death penalty as well. I'm the "culture of death" you hear the conservatives crying about.

[Diamond Cross]

Originally Posted by TheScatman

No but I am saying once you start saying "what if" that just logically continues into things you cant prove and that no study can.

can anyone give me what percentage of meth users steal to further their habit? can anyone tell me what percent would in a free market with lower drug prices and treatment more in the open? I dont think anyone can...its useless to make these utilitarian arguments

Here is some info for you:


Meth Statistics</SPAN>

During 1999 4.3% (9.4 million people) of the U.S. population reported trying methamphetamine at least once in their lifetime. The highest rate of meth use was among the 18-25 age group with 5.2% of them reporting lifetime meth use during 1999.

Meth lab seizures have gone up 577% nationally since 1995.

Statistics over the past few years show Oklahoma among the nations leader in Meth labs, arrests, addiction and cases.

In 1994 the Drug Enforcement Administration seized 63 meth labs. That figure climbed to 879 in 1996 and 1,627 in 1998.

Meth numbers also indicate the drug has yet to make it to the East Coast. Cities such as Oklahoma and Omaha have worse meth problems, than New York City or Detroit.

Nowhere is it a bigger problem that in the Midwest, where meth accounts for nearly 90% of all drug cases, and nowhere is it more prevalent than in Oklahoma, which ranks in the top five in almost every meth category.

Meth is surpassing cocaine as the drug of choice in Oklahoma. The state medical examiner's office reports the number of death cases testing positive for meth have been higher than cocaine for the past three years. The office also reports meth is found in more cases of homicides, and motor vehicle accidents.

The estimated cost of making meth is $100 an ounce, with a street value of $800 an ounce.

While cheap for the people who make it, meth is costly for taxpayers. The OSBI estimates that it costs an average of $2,000 to clean up a lab. Many law enforcement agencies including the OSBI contract out for cleaning services. The OSBI spent $1 million on cleaning services each year.

The courts have felt the effects of the meth invasion, with several distinct courts overloaded with cases. Many are being dropped because of delays in meth testing at state laboratories.

This year, both the legislature and federal government have increased funding to prosecute meth manufacturers.

Methamphetamine's high lasts for 6 to 12 hours, and 50% of the drug is removed from the body in 12 hours.

Meth's street value is approximately $3,000 per pound.

Meth is a highly addictive drug that can be manufactured by using products commercially available anywhere in the United States.




meth statistics & meth abuse treatment by drug statistics.com

[Kytro]

Originally Posted by DosEquis

Alcohol is already legal and is in a whole different boat from things like coke, meth, etc.

Not really. There are a number of good reasons why making drugs illegal is pointless.

1) There is no proof whatsoever that it reduces usage

2) There is no proof it reduces drug-related rime

3) Focus needs to be on treatment, banning it is denying any problems

[Kytro]

Some stats about Amphetamine use:

#1 Australia: 3.6%
#2 United Kingdom: 3%
#3 New Zealand: 2.47%
#4 Spain: 0.87%
#5 Switzerland: 0.8%
#6 United States: 0.7%
#7 Denmark: 0.68%
#8 Ireland: 0.68%
#9 Belgium: 0.65%
#10 Italy: 0.51%

Tough laws do not affect usage

[7960]

Originally Posted by TheScatman

I often hear abortion rights activists use the phrase "it a women body, let her do as she pleases" or "its between her and her doctor". So wouldn't it logically follow that anyone who is pro-choice favors a very strong right of self-ownership over ones body? If so....why don't they favor:

Allowing personal drug use by adults at home (if even only by themselves, so no claims of child abuse, hurting others come into play)?

Seems like if one has ownership over her body to use a medical procedure that ~30 percent of people consider infanticide, it would follow one could use drugs by themselves, in their home, since nobody can argue its murder.

Thoughts?

I think you've made two HUGE leaps here:

-who says women who favor abortion do not favor legalizing drugs for personal use?

-who says 30% of people consider abortion infanticide? (and giving you that number, why don't the opinions of the other 70% matter? )

[TheScatman]

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

I'm for legal abortions and all drugs legalized.

I'm for assisted suicide and the death penalty as well. I'm the "culture of death" you hear the conservatives crying about.

^^^ All of those are defensible

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by DosEquis

Grow weed, grow mint, combine them its still natural. It takes no manufacturing. You don't need extra chemicals or lab to put them together.

Cocaine and heroine are natural

[DosEquis]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Cocaine and heroine are natural

Why that is a lovely garden of cocaine and heroine you have there b2w.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by DosEquis

Why that is a lovely garden of coca plants and poppy flowers you have there b2w.

Thanks!

[TheScatman]

Originally Posted by 7960

I think you've made two HUGE leaps here:

-who says women who favor abortion do not favor legalizing drugs for personal use?

-who says 30% of people consider abortion infanticide? (and giving you that number, why don't the opinions of the other 70% matter? )

because I am saying if you are advocating a position where its not insane by any stretch of the imagination to call it murder, I dont see how an adult using cocaine by himself at home can possibly be banned

[motivez]

It's a good point really. It's ironic that the hippy generation that did so many drugs has really failed to address the illegality / criminalization issue that's overcrowding our prisons, mixing in non violent offenders with murderers, rapists, etc..

Maybe "our" generation will tackle it, but seeing how anti-drug policies have been pushed on us since we were kids, I somehow doubt it.

I think that "victimless crimes" are pretty much bullshit. Prostitution, for example, if legalized, could be regulated for health purposes, would lessen the exploitation of women, etc.. We'd probably see many more "safe environments" set up for them to practice in like the "bunny ranch" in Vegas, where they make good money, aren't abused, aren't drug addicts, they're tested for std's, etc..

As far as drugs, why should the government tell me that I can't use a drug as long as I don't place anyone else in danger while using it?

If I do place someone in danger, how is that poor judgment any different than if I do it while sober?

[TheScatman]

Originally Posted by motivez

It's a good point really. It's ironic that the hippy generation that did so many drugs has really failed to address the illegality / criminalization issue that's overcrowding our prisons, mixing in non violent offenders with murderers, rapists, etc..

Maybe "our" generation will tackle it, but seeing how anti-drug policies have been pushed on us since we were kids, I somehow doubt it.

I think that "victimless crimes" are pretty much bullshit. Prostitution, for example, if legalized, could be regulated for health purposes, would lessen the exploitation of women, etc.. We'd probably see many more "safe environments" set up for them to practice in like the "bunny ranch" in Vegas, where they make good money, aren't abused, aren't drug addicts, they're tested for std's, etc..

As far as drugs, why should the government tell me that I can't use a drug as long as I don't place anyone else in danger while using it?

If I do place someone in danger, how is that poor judgment any different than if I do it while sober?

And as for the last point, I feel like a "reckless endangerment" statute could cover a broad range of topics with regards to vicitimless crimes, whether that be having sex with some as a prosititue knowing you have an STD, usuing drugs to an extreme point with children in the home, driving udner the influence of any mind altering substances. Althought I'm not sure I agree with it completely, it would be a good start.

On a broader note, I just think its disappointing that Americans nowadays dont stand up to the government more and ask questions, from drugs prohibition all the way to warrantless wiretaps

[7960]

Originally Posted by TheScatman

On a broader note, I just think its disappointing that Americans nowadays dont stand up to the government more and ask questions, from drugs prohibition all the way to warrantless wiretaps

Didn't the thread on libertarians already cover this?

People don't ask about cocaine and heroin because they agree they should be controlled substances. Go out and campaign on the "cocaine should be legal" platform and see how many votes you get.

[TheScatman]

Originally Posted by 7960

Didn't the thread on libertarians already cover this?

People don't ask about cocaine and heroin because they agree they should be controlled substances. Go out and campaign on the "cocaine should be legal" platform and see how many votes you get.

Like I have said before, this country has turned into a place where everyone (on either side of the political spectrum) seeks to use the state to control other people. Hell, take any willful transaction between two people, and you will always find a third party that objects...no matter what it is. So why does this matter? Well it matters because it comes down to this...are we going to embrace the liberty to contract and free market or basically admit that government can control every facet of our lives?

In my opinion is, the world you and a lot of other people are living in is too based in man made law. For example, if the 1st amndment were repealed tomorrow, would you really lose the right to free speech? I say no, as I believe their is natural law above and beyond man made law. The quote from a Janice Brown speech sums it up:

“For if there is no higher law, there is no basis for saying that any man-made law is unjust…and, in such case, the ultimate reason for things, as Justice Holmes himself conceded, is force. If there is no natural law, there are no natural rights; and if there are no natural rights, the Bill of Rights is a delusion, and everything which a man possesses—his life, his liberty and his property—are held by sufferance of government, and in that case it is inevitable that government will some day find it expedient to take away what is held by such a title as that. And if there are no eternal truths, if everything changes, everything, then we may not complain when the standard of citizenship changes from freedom to servility and when democracy relapses into tyranny.”