I'd like someone to explain how this isn't as bad as getting whipped

[Thorgrim]

Crooks and Liars » Getting Waterboarded

I can't link right so you have to go their and they link to another site which has someone being water tortured like the US military has done in the past

Currently the system is even more refined, they turn you upside down and the water rushes into your face rather than just being poured

However, my post link shows just the old technique

If we use something like this, I don't see why we can't just whip people and use other torture methods on any suspect we detain for any reason, like the innocent cab driver NBC News interviewed after Abu G.

The current limits are that we can't "Cause organ failure" well Saddam had a ton of techniques that didn't involve organ failure that Bush and Co. used as examples of how cruel his regime was...my point is why can't we use his playbook?

[Diamond Cross]

I'm against the use of torture. It never truly produces results and only forces the victim to tell what the torturer wants to hear, and absolutely refuses to believe that the victim may be telling the truth about not knowing anything.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Diamond Cross

I'm against the use of torture. It never truly produces results and only forces the victim to tell what the torturer wants to hear, and absolutely refuses to believe that the victim may be telling the truth about not knowing anything.

The failed technique of torture; the only failure to be used century after century after century.

But that's besides the point. We don't torture our prisoners like you'd like to think we do.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

We don't torture our prisoners

Yes, we do.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by motivez

Yes, we do.

Our definitions of torture are obviously different.

Waterboarding isn't torture.
Waking them up in the middle of the night isn't torture.
Psych'ing them out to think something is gonna happen but it doesn't isn't torture.
Scaring them isn't torture.
Playing Metallica for days isn't torture.

[kinggovernor]

if we publicly identify our techniques then we will get no information

[motivez]

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

if we publicly identify our techniques then we will get no information

Yeah, because if they know how they're going to be tortured, it's going to be less torture?

[motivez]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Our definitions of torture are obviously different.

Waterboarding isn't torture.
Waking them up in the middle of the night isn't torture.
Psych'ing them out to think something is gonna happen but it doesn't isn't torture.
Scaring them isn't torture.
Playing Metallica for days isn't torture.

Geneva Conventions say waterboarding is torture.

Psychological interrogation techniques are different than some of the stuff we do to them physically, like waterboarding, stress positions (modern day version of the rack), etc..

[Thorgrim]

So B2W, you watched that video, and you thought whippping someone once was 100x worse than what was shown?

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

So B2W, you watched that video, and you thought whippping someone once was 100x worse than what was shown?

Yes. Everyone seen what someone that's been whipped looks like, that is, if they survive?

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

So B2W, you watched that video, and you thought whippping someone once was 100x worse than what was shown?

I would rather be water boarded than whipped. Throughout waterboarding your conscious. It's more psychological than anything else.

Whipping is both psychological and extremely physical. Now waterboarding is very damaging to your body. But whipping is more painful. It's also a lot easier to bleed out, hit a tendon, etc. Much greater chance of serious damage or death. And far longer after effects and damage done to your back, spine, muscles, etc.

I would take the waterboarding over being whipped if given the option. I still consider waterboarding torture from my own opinion, I just rank it below whipping. It's definitely a legitimate claim of torture unlike the old "hey hey hey you touched a Koran without your white gloves" or "you put the Koran on the TV, that's psychological torture!" that we were hearing about a couple years ago.

These are legitimate cases of torture now. Are the needed? Who knows. Are they helping? Who knows. Should we be doing it? Probably not.

[Thorgrim]

I never thought that being hit with a whip once or twice...and then you died...there is some high occurance of this I am not familiar with?

[JaJae]

Who said once or twice?

When you lash on someone for the sake of torture you can bleed to death very easily. In fact it happens accidently in the private sector:
8-year-old girl dies after whipping and "boot camp" treatment.

Nichelle L. Jones bled to death from a belt whipping to the buttocks administered by the live-in boyfriend after she rose in the middle of the night and made her way to the kitchen for "sweets and some Kool-Aid," according to the complaint.

Slaves used to be flogged to death as well. It's serious.
Here's a survivor:

[Thorgrim]

Well flogging was used as a punishment for slaves, not as a means of extracting information...it was probably their intention to bring the person to the brink of death and risk him/her dying...

and the other example is an 8 year old girl

I doubt water torture is healthy, I remember we murdered an Iraqi POW by "smothering" him to death...I bet that could have been water torture

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Well flogging was used as a punishment for slaves, not as a means of extracting information...it was probably their intention to bring the person to the brink of death and risk him/her dying...

and the other example is an 8 year old girl

I doubt water torture is healthy, I remember we murdered an Iraqi POW by "smothering" him to death...I bet that could have been water torture

No actually it wasn't in the slave owner's best interest to kill their slaves. It was done for punishment. Torture by flogging has an intent of bringing someone on the brink of death to scare them into giving truthful information. The same reasoning behind waterboarding. Bring them on the brink of death and scare them. Only flogging to that degree has serious physical side effects, extreme pain and a good chance of bleeding to death.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

I doubt water torture is healthy, I remember we murdered an Iraqi POW by "smothering" him to death...I bet that could have been water torture

It's possible. I wonder how many would have bled to death if we were flogging them.

[Diamond Cross]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Our definitions of torture are obviously different.

Waterboarding isn't torture.
Waking them up in the middle of the night isn't torture.
Psych'ing them out to think something is gonna happen but it doesn't isn't torture.
Scaring them isn't torture.
Playing Metallica for days isn't torture.

I don't know what waterboarding is, in regards to this particular context.

Sleep deprivation is defined as torture.

It can be, think emotional abuse, similar to what a child might suffer from their parent constantly calling them stupid and threatening to beat the shit over the years. Try coming out of that unscathed, without any kind of emotional problems.

Scaring could inadvertedly cause a heart attack, especially repeated times.

Like how they played music for the Branch Davidians at levels that could render damage to the ears and cause sleep deprivation?

It's a very fine line.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Diamond Cross

I don't know what waterboarding is, in regards to this particular context.

Typically waterboarding is the act of strapping someone to a chair, usually beating them a bit with your fists and dunking them back into a tub of water repeatedly and for extended periods of time. Splashing water in their face, etc. Essentially scaring them into thinking they're going to drown and making them go long durations without breathing. It's a little more tramautic than I've described. I can't really describe it well.

There's mock videos on the internet of people role playing a water boarding incident. The OP linked to a video on Crooks and Liars. I assume it's a mock version of it, but I'm on dialup so I'll be skipping it. You can find examples of people showing what it's like on both conservative and liberal blogs. I've seen them on both. They're usually pretty well done from what I can tell.

[Scrum]

Waterboarding is torture.

[Diamond Cross]

Yeah, that's torture.

Here is how the Geneva Convention defines torture, and all of those methods fit under this definition:



Article 1

For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application.

COMPILATION UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW - Definition of Torture

The U.S. convention against torture:


Part I

Article 1

1. For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
2. This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application.

UN Convention Against Torture

So under these conventions, even according to American conventions, the techniques described are torture. and President Bush should be impeached for those violations.