what exactly about liberals do you dislike? i can understand hating on uber-liberal hippies, and peta members, but what about the rest of us? i hear the term "liberal" thrown around like we have secret cult meetings at night where we burn bibles, and sacrifice live animals. during the elections ...
11-18-2006, 07:10 PM
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| where the porn at?  Realist Englewood, CO 
| so for no-liberal minded people... what exactly about liberals do you dislike? i can understand hating on uber-liberal hippies, and peta members, but what about the rest of us? i hear the term "liberal" thrown around like we have secret cult meetings at night where we burn bibles, and sacrifice live animals. during the elections i heard attack ads like "LIBERAL bob jones wants to let illegal immigrants work towards becoming american citizens!" is there another way an illegal could become a citizen? that sort of thinking is just ridiculous, so what is the reason so many are convinced we will take this country down the gutter. its especially confusing when the general view of the country is that our current president AND congress are doing a really shitty job. | ||||
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11-18-2006, 07:12 PM
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| Junkie  Conservative Party
| the whole part about them pushing for more control of my paycheck, my land, my cars, my retirment, even my freaking garbage, etc.... | ||||
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11-18-2006, 07:31 PM
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| Braccae tuae aperiuntur.  Reform Party NJ
| Originally Posted by Diesel66 Conservatives have been working on taking things that aren't physical though, like freedoms. What's worse, a tax or a loss of freedom? 
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11-18-2006, 07:35 PM
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| Administrator  libertarian Oklahoma
| One of my best friends is a "liberal" I know plenty of good liberals, work with a few there's some on this board. However, the problem I have is just like many on the right they want to infringe on rights as they see fit. Also, there is a bigger double standard in my opinion on the left. They're totally tolerant of "questionable" and "alternative" lifestyles but if you disagree they call you a biggot, they resort to name calling, if you're a public figure in the D party they'll cut you out of the party, try to pull the rug out from under you. There are double standards on both sides, but the left is notorious for going on and on about "personal choice" and "personal freedom" but reality is they only want this if you agree with them. Which is why they try to tell me what I should pay for, they want to take more of MY money that I earned to force me to do what they want me to do. Not all liberals have double standards but many do and almost all of them want more government intervention which is a direct violation of my rights and the progressive tax system they cling so dearly to is a violation of the equal protection clause and a strong argument could be made that it is in many cases taxation without fair representation. why? Because the constitution only applies if it furthers their agenda. | ||||
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11-18-2006, 07:36 PM
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| Administrator libertarian Oklahoma
| Originally Posted by JaJae Loss of freedom most definately but this is not a republican trend, this is a result of sept 11th and it is ultimately why I'm glad the dems have retaken the house and we now have a divided senate.
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11-18-2006, 07:40 PM
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| where the porn at? Realist Englewood, CO
| Originally Posted by Diesel66 explain this to me, how do liberals intend to steal your money? do you really know why, or is it just the common thing to say?
also, why is the privatization of everything such a great thing? Last edited by SICKGUY; 11-20-2006 at 01:08 AM.. | ||||
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11-18-2006, 07:49 PM
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| where the porn at? Realist Englewood, CO
| Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95 i agree with you to an extent, but i think the double standards are more or less political , or misinformed. im generally pretty liberal, but im never going to go along with something i dont agree with. for instance, if the dems hold congress in 08, depending on who is running, i might concider voting republican, or totally sitting it out. i dont think one party should hold all branches of government. i feel like power leads to corruption, and it was only a matter of time before the republicans fell victim. it will probably happen to any party with total power.
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11-18-2006, 08:31 PM
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| Administrator libertarian Oklahoma
| Originally Posted by SICKGUY
I agree that power tends to corrupt, although I think had sept 11 not happened things would have been vastly different...but maybe I'm wrong? Bush has been far to conservative socially for me and far to liberal economically for me  so I've been very disappointed quite frankly. | ||||
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11-18-2006, 10:53 PM
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| Braccae tuae aperiuntur. Reform Party NJ
| Originally Posted by SICKGUY I don't dislike liberals. I dislike some liberal ideology, just like I dislike some conservative ideology. I'm not so conservative that I wanted the Republicans to win during the midterm elections. I voted for Gore and to be quite honest if there were elections today between him and Bush I'd probably be very torn on who I'd throw my vote to. And I strongly dislike Gore. Although I come off conservative on the forum, I think it has to do with disagreeing with much of the current liberal ideology. I hope with the new upcoming wins they'll make some good of it. But as of late there really hasn't been anything good to say about liberals other than they're not Republican. I sincerely hope that changes.
My biggest problems with current liberal politics is the blame game. Now Republicans do the same thing, but liberals have no solutions. It's one thing to finger point and obstruct. It's another to do so in a critical way in such that you have a plan or a better alternative. Liberals haven't. It's just been a lot of emotional ties painted onto social and economic ideals that in my opinion are bad. Liberals of the early 90s, late 80s are my kinda people. Wanted welfare, but under clinton it was regulated. That's the kind of stuff I like about liberals. That kind of moderation is great. Taking wonderful social program ideas and economic ideas and trying to make them feasible into our economy is a wonderful thing. However, as of late that idea has gone out the window. It's turned into complaining about the military budget (which I support) and wanting to throw more money into education in ways that it's been proven to do no good or throw money at a universal healthcare system run by the government that is funded by the mainly the rich. These types of things I strongly disagree with. But on the other hand, the Republicans have also been wasting my money and taking my freedoms. I'm not cool with that either. But now the Democrats are pushing things like stem cells and gay marriage.. two things I support. And I'd be willing to deal with some of the negatives if it means they'll continue to support some of these key areas, like protecting my freedoms, developing stem cells, fighting for gay marriage, shaking up the leadership on Iraq, etc. You have to take the good with the bad. The Democrats are FINALLY starting to stand for something. They haven't made an official stance and they haven't unified themselves very well, but I'm hoping when they all get sworn in things will start to change in this country. Some will be positive, some will be negative. But, at least then the Democrats will have a leg to stand on. Because as of late liberals and Democrats have done nothing really other than bash, break scandals, criticize, etc and have done very little to help our country. And that's where I have a problem. You'll see my personal issue with liberals on this forum comes from the constant blame with no solutions. That's what I'm pissed off about more than anything. And it's for that reason my support has shifted to the party that is willing to stand for something and show some progress for our nation... IE Bush's tax cuts, standing up to the UN w/ Bolton, etc. It's a give and take really. It's rare to find someone who supports everything their party stands for and trashed the other party constantly. I think people are wrong when they take a true political affiliation to the degree where they start associating themselves with the party and completely bash the other. There comes a time where if you agree with a party 95% of the time are you really agreeing or are you psychologically just associating yourself and training yourself into an ideology. That can be dangerous. I guess it's possible for someone to fit into the cookie cutter mold, but that would be extremely rare. I think it's more likely the person has some psychological reasons for framing their views to fit a mold. So when you say why don't you like "liberals" I'd say it goes for any political party... all die hard liberals, libertarians and conservatives. I've seen people change from one radical point of view to another in a matter of a couple of years to realign with a new party of their choice. It's strange to me. It almost seems "fake" and more of a mental association thing than an actual intellectual thought process when taking stances on issues. Last edited by JaJae; 11-18-2006 at 11:11 PM.. | ||||
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11-18-2006, 11:12 PM
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| Braccae tuae aperiuntur. Reform Party NJ
| I didn't want to do this or derail, but I'm afraid my "psychological" references will be taken wrong without explanation. I typed up an edit but it was so long I figured it should be it's own post to prevent confusion. Please don't respond to this if you want to respond to me, respond to the above post so as not to derail the thread. Thanks. Originally Posted by JaJae
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11-19-2006, 12:48 AM
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| Here's to you...  Liberal
| Excellent thread with excellent responses so far. I hope this discussion will continue, more members will comment, and we'll be able to explore in detail why we feel the way we do toward each other. | ||||
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11-19-2006, 12:54 AM
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| Administrator libertarian Oklahoma
| Originally Posted by thatguyoverthere What about you?
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11-19-2006, 02:24 AM
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| Political Genius  Republican Yorba Linda Ca.
| There is nothing "liberal" about the way many so called liberals think and behave. It is a constant battle of selective judgement, selective morality, and lip service to the basic concepts of freedom while you pronounce mankind as social and economic victims in all behavior (exception: white males of any christian faith and/or europeon decent). How you can think this way without your head exploding I don't understand? Let me give an example. Tammy Bruce was head of the LA Chapter of NOW when OJ was arrested. She launched a protest campain based on the obvious abuse of Nicole (police records and photos) and the probable murder! But the National NOW would offer no support. In fact they worked publically against her. It seems that the race card trumped the womens victim card in certain circles. The whole concept of personal guilt and responcibilty was thrown to the far winds!
__________________ Sock It To Me!  "Bureaucracy is a Parasite that Preys on Free Thought and Suffocates Free Spirit!" - Douglas Adams | ||||
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11-19-2006, 02:33 AM
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| One American Family at a Time.  Idealist The OC, California
| This reminds me of the last episode of Bill Mahr with I believe his name is Norman Lear... And they were talking about the world Liberal an so on, but Lear said something interesting, he said to the effect of "I'm conservative, when it comes to my bill of rights, my constitution, and my personal freedom, I'm conservative, that's mine, and I won't let you take it away. But, as a Liberal, when I am told by the President, that we are not going to leave 'any child left behind' I am ready to give up what I have to so that can be reality. Then I am a bleeding heart liberal." I thought that was well put and I could relate to it. | ||||
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11-19-2006, 02:52 AM
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| Here's to you... Liberal
| Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95 I don't want to derail or distract the thread. I find it very interesting and informative to hear the reasons people don't like liberals. I don't really think it's appropriate for me to argue things point by point anyway. You can't argue somebody out of how they feel. It's best to learn why they feel the way they do. Sometimes it's better to listen, but I'll chime in if that's okay.
There's so many points to address too, it's hard to know where to begin. This may be just thinking aloud here. I'm a liberal, but I consider myself an independent liberal. I think that most liberals hold many different views about different issues. The thing is, liberals seem more tolerant of differing views within their own community, eventually to their own detriment. Even if they agree on certain issues, they often disagree on how they should be handled. There's not a lot of unity, organization, and common purpose. It's not that Democrats don't have solutions, they've got plenty. Ask a 100 Democrats how to solve a problem and you'll get 100 different answers! The problem is that they have no unified message and no clearly defined positions to identify themselves. That's where the Republicans have us beat. They're organized: most of them get up early every Sunday to go to church (try gettting most liberals up on Sunday before the crack of noon!) That kind of routine disipline translates directly to votes. Republicans also have identified the key issues that bring them together. Unfortunately, it's usually in opposition to something, but it is still some clearly defined positions that they find it easy to unite behind. I always laugh whenever a Republican advises the Democrats that if they stopped playing to their far left wing base, they'd get more votes. The Democratic party does a terrible job of playing to their base, especially compared to the Republicans. The Democrats know that, so for a while now it's been a rush to be Republican Lite. The average voter then sees the Democrats as squishy and with no real principles since they have no clearly identifiable positions. (That also makes it incredibly easy for the opposition to define them.) To me, it seems to come down to how you view government's role in life, and that view varies greatly with each person's individual values. Some people see dubiously effective social programs or excessive defense spending as attempting to put money to good use; while others would describe the same actions as simply throwing money at the problem. To summarize: I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about. | ||||
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11-19-2006, 03:13 AM
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| For those about to rock...  libertarian Atlanta, GA
| I think MOST liberals are liberal for good-hearted reasons. One guy I know is all about the less fortunate. That is the REASON he is a liberal. And there's nothing wrong with that. I think that's fine: to want to help people. But it's the methods that get me. The guy I mentioned before thinks that a socialist government that dabbles in every part of people's lives is completely ok as long as people are being helped. He even admits (when I prod him about it) that the government is notoriously inefficient at helping people (and doing other things it promises), but he is ok with that. Now, he's an exception I think. Most liberals will admit the CURRENT government is inefficient and often hurts more than it helps, but thinks that giving it more power, not less, is the answer. Now, to me that is insanity. How can you look at how the increasing power of the government correlates with it's ineffieciency and not come to the conclusion that further increasing power only creates more ineffieciency? To admit that and be ok with it is one thing, but to refuse to even see that seems crazy. And it's that crazy that most of my liberal friends are. They buy into the "corporations are evil" thing so much, they refuse to believe that there is any chance that corporations can be good. But again, I don't hate liberals. I think they can be taught economics enough so that they'll want to reduce taxes instead of increasing them. And when a liberal is exposed to more sensical economics (as opposed to the crazy shit that is accepted), I think the next logical step is libertarianism. It's a lot harder to convince a conservative republican that gay people are ok (which is a personal and/or religious preference) than to show a liberal good economics (which is math)... liberals are supposed to be the smarter ones anyway, right?  | ||||
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11-19-2006, 04:19 AM
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| Common Sense Conservative  Realist
| I can't stand "bleeding heart" liberals because their positions seem rooted in emotion and idealism. I also don't like hardcore economic liberals anymore than I like hardcore economic libertarians. Reasonable people aren't hardcore anything. | ||||
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11-19-2006, 05:30 AM
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| The Bydo Empire must die! Independent
| Originally Posted by SICKGUY Those who generalize extremes like that are usually extremist themselves, although they'll rarely admit it. While 'liberals' tend to see the world in contexts and relativity, conservatives' views tend towards the monochromatic: either something is, or is not. Am I generalizing here? I don't think so because the thought processes from both sides bear out in the policies they push for and how they push for them ('with us/against us' vs. 'it depends/flip flop' for ex.). Both approaches have benefits and drawbacks, but the best leaders are those who can apply both to good result. After all, some things in life are definitive and some are not.
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11-19-2006, 12:23 PM
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| Junkie Conservative Party
| Originally Posted by JaJae attacking my wallet, land, guns, etc... is an attack on my freedoms.
If a landowner cannot use his land nor sell it because it was declared a wetland, he is screwed over completely. If the garbage inspectors have to approve your trash or you get a horrible fine for not following the 20pages worth of instructions, it is an attack on your freedoms as much as wiretapping. I dont do much business on the phones but you can find out alot more personal info from trash. |
