And Now the War on Thanksgiving:

[Diamond Cross]

As I said, to me, personally.

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Yeah but all that was AFTER the first Thanksgiving. So what we're celebrating IS the good stuff!!!

No, it was before it too.

Some of the Native Americans, a couple of them helped the Pilgrims with treaties with other tribes for rights to hunt in certain areas. The Pilgrims weren't the first one's here, Hunters, and other merchants came to make money off America, and the Native Americans had disputes with them too.

[IminWonderland]

I don't know, I had mixed feelings about Thanksgiving because when they tout is a celebration of the Indians (or whatever the PC term is today) and the Whites having some kind of nice feast, I realized a long time ago how shitty it is that those white settlers did that to all these people. It was genocide for profit, and that's dispicable.

However, knowing that I'm going to get to explain Thanksgiving to a little guy one day, I will tell him present day it's the Man's holiday to eat fattening food, watch foosball, and women serve. But, to tell the history of the holiday, I would tell him the truth. This land wasn't empty when the settlers got here, some settlers were assholes, some were nice, same with some of the American natives, and the whites took over the country over time.

It's important for us to recognize the truth as a country. I sure as hell don't want to be Turkey.

[Thomas Crown]

Ironically, Thanksgiving really has shitall to do with the Indians.

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

We're celebrating the fact that tribes were nice to us before we carried out genocide on them

It's like the Germany celebrating the day before the Nazis came to power as "hey the holocaust didn't start yet!" day

What disconnect!

The people you are talking about were not even close to a country yet! Are you saying the pilgrims who first came here were involved in the mass slaughter and forced displacement of Indians? Instead if you actually read the article I posted in full the main problem seems to have been the stealing (by some I would guess) of food left at graves of the dead by Indians. A practice some would call Ignorant Wasteful Christianity if they practiced it.

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

True patriotism embraces the good and the bad, it doesn't just make propaganda about it's past

It's like Turkey denying the Armenian genocide to this day, they look like complete fools

Do you want Americans to be viewed as people who can't handle their own history?

What denial? If you bothered to read my post I made it clear that the past mistreatment of Indians should be taught to kids. Just not under the banner of a Thanksgiving holiday.

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by IminWonderland

I realized a long time ago how shitty it is that those white settlers did that to all these people. It was genocide for profit, and that's dispicable.

but thanksgiving has nothing to do with that. It would be like not celebrating Independence day because years later other groups of Americans did something bad.

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

but thanksgiving has nothing to do with that. It would be like not celebrating Independence day because years later other groups of Americans did something bad.

If Thanksgiving has nothing to do with that, they should take all the Native American personage off of the Thanksgiving decorations. Because the reality is, is that when you bring up that culture, you bring up the whole story, not just this nice 3 day dinner they had with one group of really nice settlers.

We talk about how the Pilgrims were fleeing religious prosecution, and that's not really the truth. They didn't feel that England was Christian enough, and that's why they left. Pilgrims are put on a pedistool, and the Indians are these great helpers who showed them how to survive, and then they had dinner together? Why leave the story at that? Because it didn't end there...If it's going to be just about the dinner, then to me, the religious prosecution part means nothing either.

[Thorgrim]

Again, the nazi analogies are the best because everyone gets them...its like putting on a play

"The night before the Nazis came" and have a nice german brother who is a member of the nazi party sitting down with his jewish neighbors having an ok night before rampant violence broke out

Would that really be a good thing if Germany made it into a holiday and celebrated it going "well we have 364 other days to talk about the nazis!"

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Again, the nazi analogies are the best because everyone gets them...its like putting on a play

"The night before the Nazis came" and have a nice german brother who is a member of the nazi party sitting down with his jewish neighbors having an ok night before rampant violence broke out

Would that really be a good thing if Germany made it into a holiday and celebrated it going "well we have 364 other days to talk about the nazis!"

did the pilgrims massacre the Indians ? Then how can you link them to the actions of other groups miles and years later ?

[Thomas Crown]

Um, the pilgrims were here a hundred years before the genocide of the indians, so no the nazi analogy doesn't work at all.

[Diamond Cross]

Europeans have been killing and waging genocidal like wars against the First Peoples since they've been coming here.

[ballz2wallz]

Thanksgiving has shit all to do with the Indians, and everything to do with the beginning of our country, and that capitalist system that Bradford set up instead of the collectivism that they were supposed to follow by contract with the merchants.

It was a beautiful decision.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

did the pilgrims massacre the Indians ? Then how can you link them to the actions of other groups miles and years later ?

I'm not going to sit here and write up a history for you...but the "thanksigiving" event occured around 1621, it was just 16 years later that:

The Pequot War was an armed conflict in 1637 between an alliance of Massachusetts Bay and Plymouth colonies, with American Indian allies (the Narragansett, and Mohegan Indians), against the Pequot Indians

Believing that the English had returned to Boston, Massachusetts, the Pequot sachem Sassacus took several hundred of his warriors to make another raid on Hartford. But John Mason had only gone to visit the Narragansett, who joined him with several hundred warriors. Several allied Niantic warriors also joined Mason's group. On May 26, 1637, with a force up to about 400 fighting men, Mason attacked Misistuck by surprise. He estimated that "six or seven Hundred" Pequot were there when his forces assaulted the palisade. Some 150 warriors had accompanied Sassacus, so that Mystic's inhabitants were largely comprised of Pequot women and children. Surrounding the palisade, Mason ordered that the enclosure be set on fire. Justifying his conduct later, Mason declared that the holocaust against the Pequot was also the act of a God who "laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his People to scorn making [the Pequot] as a fiery Oven . . . Thus did the Lord judge among the Heathen, filling [Mystic] with dead Bodies." [10] Mason also insisted that should any Pequot attempt to escape the flames, that they too should be killed.

^^ There are more examples, the basic pattern follows:
Europeans come in, act friendly, get all the gifts and benefits the native peoples offer...then they divide and conquer, and whoever allies with them they conquer again later

They wage a genocidal war...the campaigns consist of outright slaughter, destroying every food source from any village no matter how peaceful, burning everything in sight that would allow the tribes to live, and whoever was left they sent to the sugar-fields which was a death sentence considering the practice was that it was cheaper to work any slave to death and import more than to keep them healthy or even somewhat comfortable

The whole point of their campaigns is to wipe out the population, and as seen from above, they believe they have a blessing from their invisible sky god (jehovah or whoever you want to call him)

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Thanksgiving has shit all to do with the Indians, and everything to do with the beginning of our country, and that capitalist system that Bradford set up instead of the collectivism that they were supposed to follow by contract with the merchants.

It was a beautiful decision.

Thanksgiving - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It was an act by local natives to save the europeans, which they did again and again

[IminWonderland]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Thanksgiving has shit all to do with the Indians, and everything to do with the beginning of our country, and that capitalist system that Bradford set up instead of the collectivism that they were supposed to follow by contract with the merchants.

It was a beautiful decision.

The beggining of our Country?

In the beggining, our Country was inhabitated by "Indians". Columbus discovered the Southern Islands and although at first thought they were wonderful, beautiful, and definatley a place he and Spain could make some money. Then merchant ships came over in droves when this word of new land spread. Then when they got here, they set up shop along the Eastern Coast, and while some were able to make treaties with tribes, others killed them off to be able to take their land. THEN the Puritans came here, andthey essentially did the same thing as the merchants. And Bradford, whoop de doo, he started up some capatalism. That didn't happen at their harvest festival, and that wasn't what saved them that winter. If Squanto wouldn't have been as kind as he was, they would have eventually all starved to death.

So, who did our "settlers" thank on Thanksgiving? It wasn't Capatalism.

So, which beggining is representitive of us?

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Thanksgiving has shit all to do with the Indians, and everything to do with the beginning of our country, and that capitalist system that Bradford set up instead of the collectivism that they were supposed to follow by contract with the merchants.

It was a beautiful decision.

You, and most everyone else seem to be confused about Thanksgiving. It was a religious holiday, set on Thursday, because that is the day people normally went to church for prayer. There was a first "feast" but that was seperate from Thanksgiving and it's origins are in Europe and the fall harvest feasts. In the original colonies, the dates were set by the local governments based on crops. Eventually, Washington signed into law for ALL of the 13 colonies an official Thanksgiving...which was associated with the battle of Saratoga and the victory there. Why people keep associating it with Native Americans...in both a good and bad way...is stupid. They had nothing to do with Thanksgiving. Personally, I hate the holiday because of it's religious bearings...but that's a whole different discussion.

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Again, the nazi analogies are the best because everyone gets them...its like putting on a play

"The night before the Nazis came" and have a nice german brother who is a member of the nazi party sitting down with his jewish neighbors having an ok night before rampant violence broke out

Would that really be a good thing if Germany made it into a holiday and celebrated it going "well we have 364 other days to talk about the nazis!"

Dim witted people on the left call everyone they don't like Nazi. It cheapens what is an important anology. It is no more relevant than for Peta to call people who raise and kill chickens Nazi. Tell me what the Pilgrims did to compare then with Nazi's. The Pilgrims collectivist, not all Americans and American history.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

Dim witted people on the left call everyone they don't like Nazi. It cheapens what is an important anology. It is no more relevant than for Peta to call people who raise and kill chickens Nazi. Tell me what the Pilgrims did to compare then with Nazi's. The Pilgrims collectivist, not all Americans and American history.

The pilgrims tried to exterminate the native tribes, using primitive methods were unable to hit the millions mark

The nazis tried to exterminate the jews, using the most advanced methods possible, were able to hit the millions mark