And Now the War on Thanksgiving:

RMNIXON · 11-22-2006, 02:18 PM

Teachers offer a flip side to Thanksgiving
Some want even young students to see things from the Indians' point of view.

By Ana Beatriz Cholo
The Associated Press

Teacher Bill Morgan walks into his third-grade class wearing a black Pilgrim hat made of construction paper and begins snatching up pencils, backpacks and glue sticks from his pupils. He tells them the items now belong to him because he "discovered" them.
Morgan is among elementary school teachers who have ditched the traditional Thanksgiving lesson, in which children dress up like Indians and Pilgrims and act out a romanticized version of their first meetings.

Morgan said he still wants his pupils at Cleveland Elementary School in San Francisco to celebrate Thanksgiving. But "what I am trying to portray is a different point of view."
Others see Morgan and teachers like him as too extreme.

"I think that is very sad," said Janice Shaw Crouse, a former college dean and public high school teacher. "He is teaching his students to hate their country. That is a very distorted view of history, a distorted view of Thanksgiving."

Chuck Narcho, a member of the Maricopa and Tohono O'odham tribes who works as a substitute teacher in Los Angeles, said younger children should not be burdened with all the gory details of history.

"If you are going to teach, you need to keep it positive," he said. "They can learn about the truths when they grow up. Caring, sharing and giving -- that is what was originally intended."
But Adam McMullin, a member of the Seminole tribe of Oklahoma and a spokesman for the National Congress of American Indians, said schoolchildren should get an accurate historical account.

Becky Wyatt, a teacher at Kettering Elementary School in Long Beach, decided to alter the costumes for the annual Thanksgiving play a few years ago after local Indians spoke out against students wearing feathers, which are sacred in their culture.

Laverne Villalobos, a member of the Omaha tribe in Nebraska who now lives in the coastal town of Pacifica near San Francisco, considers Thanksgiving a day of mourning.
The mother of four said the traditional Thanksgiving celebrations in schools instill "a false sense of really happened before and after the feast. It wasn't all warm and fuzzy."
After she complained, it was decided that pupils at her children's school will not wear Indian costumes this year.

James Loewen, a former history professor at the University of Vermont and author of Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your High School History Textbook Got Wrong, said that during the first Thanksgiving, the Wampanoag Indians and the Pilgrims had been living in relative peace, even though the tribe suspected the settlers of robbing Indian graves to steal food buried with the dead.

"Relations were strained, but yet the holiday worked. Folks got along. After that, bad things happened," Loewen said, referring to warfare that broke out later during the 17th century.

Morgan, a teacher for more than 35 years, said that after conducting his own research, he changed his approach to teaching about Thanksgiving. He tells teachers at his school this is a good way to nurture critical thinking, but he acknowledged not all are receptive: "It's kind of an uphill struggle."

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Don't get me wrong. Even kids should learn the abuse of the American Indians when the history of western expansion comes up. But to make this some PC attack on America for it's any and all wrongs to Indians on this holliday, that is too much! Let the kids celebrate a moment when all got along together! Save your historical review process for another day.

And about the Indian feathers. I think they were sacred to the bird first! Where is Peta when you need Em?

Ardentfrost · 11-22-2006, 02:25 PM

I prefer truth over tradition. Making the settlers out to be nice guys (or, even worse, victims of a violent native race) is retarded. However, making the natives out to be diplomatic and wise is also a slap in the face to history.

Publius · 11-22-2006, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

I prefer truth over tradition. Making the settlers out to be nice guys (or, even worse, victims of a violent native race) is retarded. However, making the natives out to be diplomatic and wise is also a slap in the face to history.

.

ballz2wallz · 11-22-2006, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

I prefer truth over tradition. Making the settlers out to be nice guys (or, even worse, victims of a violent native race) is retarded. However, making the natives out to be diplomatic and wise is also a slap in the face to history.

I thought they all got along? Didn't the Indians have a feast with the settlers?

SpicyMcVoodoo · 11-22-2006, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

"I think that is very sad," said Janice Shaw Crouse, a former college dean and public high school teacher. "He is teaching his students to hate their country. That is a very distorted view of history, a distorted view of Thanksgiving."

RMNIXON · 11-22-2006, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

I thought they all got along? Didn't the Indians have a feast with the settlers?

Yes, at Thanksgiving. That is the Holiday. That is the historical event we celebrate. It is not "American Conquered and Civilized the Indians" day. Should we talk about what the Indians did to Americans while working for the French? Anyone want to talk both sides in front of little children?

ballz2wallz · 11-22-2006, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

Yes, at Thanksgiving. That is the Holiday. That is the historical event we celebrate. It is not "American Conquered and Civilized the Indians" day. Should we talk about what the Indians did to Americans while working for the French? Anyone want to talk both sides in front of little children?

So what we're celebrating IS happy and good. What's everyone talking about?

Ardentfrost · 11-22-2006, 02:44 PM

Originally it was just harvest celebrations which the pilgrims took from their own traditions. Early they did get help from some natives because a lot of what they brought from England to plant wasn't growing (rain is a lot less regular along the east coast of America than it is in England, plus they experienced some droughts during that time).

But just because some natives decided to show them how to farm maise doesn't mean that every native in the region was tickled pink that new settlers were starting to encroach on their hunting territories. This is why the pilgrims started to become more wary of the darker skinned locals... they would often hear of someone getting jacked up while in route to somewhere or while out hunting or something.

There's a LOT of bullshit that went down from both sides... and ultimately, prejudice from both races ruined relations and resulted in some pretty horrible shit.

ballz2wallz · 11-22-2006, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

Originally it was just harvest celebrations which the pilgrims took from their own traditions. Early they did get help from some natives because a lot of what they brought from England to plant wasn't growing (rain is a lot less regular along the east coast of America than it is in England, plus they experienced some droughts during that time).

But just because some natives decided to show them how to farm maise doesn't mean that every native in the region was tickled pink that new settlers were starting to encroach on their hunting territories. This is why the pilgrims started to become more wary of the darker skinned locals... they would often hear of someone getting jacked up while in route to somewhere or while out hunting or something.

There's a LOT of bullshit that went down from both sides... and ultimately, prejudice from both races ruined relations and resulted in some pretty horrible shit.

Yeah but all that was AFTER the first Thanksgiving. So what we're celebrating IS the good stuff!!!

Thorgrim · 11-22-2006, 03:55 PM

We're celebrating the fact that tribes were nice to us before we carried out genocide on them

It's like the Germany celebrating the day before the Nazis came to power as "hey the holocaust didn't start yet!" day

ballz2wallz · 11-22-2006, 03:57 PM

What exactly are people complaining about here? Should we not celebrate Thanksgiving because 'bad things' happened in our past?

Are any country's beginnings not mired with 'bad things'?

Donkey® · 11-22-2006, 04:00 PM

Would the Indians be celebrating Thanksgiving today if THEY were the ones that weren't wiped out by the settlers?

Thorgrim · 11-22-2006, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

What exactly are people complaining about here? Should we not celebrate Thanksgiving because 'bad things' happened in our past?

Are any country's beginnings not mired with 'bad things'?

True patriotism embraces the good and the bad, it doesn't just make propaganda about it's past

It's like Turkey denying the Armenian genocide to this day, they look like complete fools

Do you want Americans to be viewed as people who can't handle their own history?

6SpeedTA95 · 11-22-2006, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

True patriotism embraces the good and the bad, it doesn't just make propaganda about it's past

It's like Turkey denying the Armenian genocide to this day, they look like complete fools

Do you want Americans to be viewed as people who can't handle their own history?

What?

Who's denying anything? I dont recall thanksgiving being a coverup for atrocities of our past.

ballz2wallz · 11-22-2006, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

True patriotism embraces the good and the bad, it doesn't just make propaganda about it's past

It's like Turkey denying the Armenian genocide to this day, they look like complete fools

Do you want Americans to be viewed as people who can't handle their own history?

I think we are embracing our beginning; doesn't that include the good AND the bad?

AVengeance · 11-22-2006, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

I prefer truth over tradition. Making the settlers out to be nice guys (or, even worse, victims of a violent native race) is retarded. However, making the natives out to be diplomatic and wise is also a slap in the face to history.

Many of the settlers were "nice guys" . And if you don't think American natives were violent, you've never studied the Mohawks.

AVengeance · 11-22-2006, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Would the Indians be celebrating Thanksgiving today if THEY were the ones that weren't wiped out by the settlers?

I've always thought of "thanksgiving" as more of giving thanks to GOD for the bountiful harvest.
This year, the garden did really well, and last night I got the furry thing in the picture. This year I have lots to give thanks for, and it has NOTHING to do with cowboys and indians.

(p.s.: that's my wife in the pic, not me)

Ardentfrost · 11-22-2006, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by AVengeance

Many of the settlers were "nice guys" . And if you don't think American natives were violent, you've never studied the Mohawks.

I think you misunderstood the post of mine you quoted. I said neither side was good to the other.

Diamond Cross · 11-22-2006, 04:39 PM

She's pretty.

However in regards to the topic, I for one do not like thanksgiving because I am part Cherokee and to me it's come to represent the genocide of all the First Peoples.

However, I have mixed feelings about it too. I do celebrate the holiday with friends and family.

Ardentfrost · 11-22-2006, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by Diamond Cross

She's pretty.

However in regards to the topic, I for one do not like thanksgiving because I am part Cherokee and to me it's come to represent the genocide of all the First Peoples.

However, I have mixed feelings about it too. I do celebrate the holiday with friends and family.

I don't think Thanksgiving REPRESENTS that, but to ignore it is just as bad as pretending everything is hunky-dory.