92 yr old woman resists police state, pays with her life

[lew]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

Proof?

So you can break into anyone's home at 4am and you won't be prosecuted for anything?

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by lew

So you can break into anyone's home at 4am and you won't be prosecuted for anything?

I'm referring to the police forcefully entering someone's home at 4am to serve a valid warrant. That is not illegal, which is what you guys don't get, since you keep referring to what the police did as "breaking in," as if there's no distinction between that and a cat burglar.

[lew]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

I'm referring to the police forcefully entering someone's home at 4am to serve a valid warrant. That is not illegal, which is what you guys don't get, since you keep referring to what the police did as "breaking in," as if there's no distinction between that and a cat burglar.

No one here is claiming it was an illegal search per say. What we are saying is that it was a stupid search.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by lew

No one here is claiming it was an illegal search per say. What we are saying is that it was a stupid search.

Would you still think it was stupid if it were plutonium instead of your beloved drugs?

[Kytro]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Would you still think it was stupid if it were plutonium instead of your beloved drugs?

I'd say pretty much.

My problem is with the idea that just because a legal right exists makes it a good idea.

The police do have a job to do, however they really need to be making appropriate judgment calls.

There is 0 reason for them to be in plain clothes AND bust down doors. Combining them is a bad move regardless of them stating they were police and if they had the right or not.

Considering the age of the woman it is quite reasonable that she would panic.

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by lew

No one here is claiming it was an illegal search per say. What we are saying is that it was a stupid search.

Yeah, I know no one is saying it's illegal. They're all complaining without any regard for pragmatics.

If people think it's so outrageous that police are able to come into people's homes at 4am to execute warrants, then what do they propose we do instead? Make it illegal for police to execute warrants as such? I don't see what else the point is of all this bitching about police powers if they don't want to make such things illegal.

And if what happened were illegal, then the de facto result is an announcement to drug dealers that they're immune from police if it's night time and they're at home. That's a pretty untenable result.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by Kytro

I'd say pretty much.

My problem is with the idea that just because a legal right exists makes it a good idea.

The police do have a job to do, however they really need to be making appropriate judgment calls.

There is 0 reason for them to be in plain clothes AND bust down doors. Combining them is a bad move regardless of them stating they were police and if they had the right or not.

Considering the age of the woman it is quite reasonable that she would panic.

They may have been in "plain clothes" but they were EASILY identified as cops by their announcement when entering and the big "POLICE" taped to their chest and back. There were also uniformed officers and marked patrol cars on the scene. Oh, they were displaying their badges too.

I have no problem with the old woman panicking and shooting up the cops. A lot of people in her situation COULD do that. But I DO have an issue with people blaming the cops for doing their job...and doing it LEGALLY. The old lady is to blame because she was the one who committed the crime here.

[AVengeance]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

Yeah, I know no one is saying it's illegal. They're all complaining without any regard for pragmatics.

If people think it's so outrageous that police are able to come into people's homes at 4am to execute warrants, then what do they propose we do instead? Make it illegal for police to execute warrants as such? I don't see what else the point is of all this bitching about police powers if they don't want to make such things illegal.

And if what happened were illegal, then the de facto result is an announcement to drug dealers that they're immune from police if it's night time and they're at home. That's a pretty untenable result.

Maybe it's that macho bustin' down doors TV-show version of police I don't share that makes this problematic. You see the police as superheros, and gun-wielding grandmas as supervillians. Nothing can change that. The problem, of course, is that the police are not superheros. The realistic solutions are nut busting down the doors and gunning down the supervillians in search of a more peaceful, secure neighborhood. There are MANY other ways to lock down the premises, and they would be much less likely to have resulted in death or permenant injury to anyone. This macho superhero shit just escalates a situation.

[lew]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Would you still think it was stupid if it were plutonium instead of your beloved drugs?

Yes.

[7th Ninjai]

I'm happy that outside agencies are beginning to investigate this incident. No knock warrants in the middle of the night are a horrible police procedure that kill innocent civilians who are rightfully defending their homes.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by 7th Ninjai

I'm happy that outside agencies are beginning to investigate this incident. No knock warrants in the middle of the night are a horrible police procedure that kill innocent civilians who are rightfully defending their homes.

No knocks are usually gotten when they feel alerting the criminals would put the cops in immediate peril. Apparently they were correct in this case. The cops were LEGALLY there and had LEGAL reasons for being there. The woman has no LEGAL standing for shooting those cops. Plain and simple. These are laws that are passed by the legislature that "the people" elect. The cops are doing a JOB and those people that villify them are ignorant.

[7th Ninjai]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

No knocks are usually gotten when they feel alerting the criminals would put the cops in immediate peril. Apparently they were correct in this case. The cops were LEGALLY there and had LEGAL reasons for being there. The woman has no LEGAL standing for shooting those cops. Plain and simple. These are laws that are passed by the legislature that "the people" elect. The cops are doing a JOB and those people that villify them are ignorant.

No one is disputing that they had legal justification for being there. However, in many states, citizens have a legal right to defend their homes against intruders. We don't know if the police announced themselves before entering or while entering. The only witness who could possibly dispute that is dead. We do know that they entered her house in the middle of the night and in plain clothes. It's a horrible practice that resulted in an innocent woman dying.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by 7th Ninjai

No one is disputing that they had legal justification for being there. However, in many states, citizens have a legal right to defend their homes against intruders. We don't know if the police announced themselves before entering or while entering. The only witness who could possibly dispute that is dead. We do know that they entered her house in the middle of the night and in plain clothes. It's a horrible practice that resulted in an innocent woman dying.

But it doesn't matter if they announced or not. They had a LEGAL no-knock warrant. The warrant >> rights of owners of the property being searched. She has every right in the world to defend against INTRUDERS. Shit, if these were cops there because someone called them from a neighbor's saying "there is nobody home yet I see lights" and the cops were walking around that house and the lady shot them...perfectly fine. These cops weren't investigating anything...they had enough evidence to secure a warrant. They thought there would be some peril to their lives by announcing, so they got a no knock. For you to keep calling this lady "innocent" is just stupid. She tried to kill 3 cops. That is not innocent. We still don't know the connection between her and the guy selling drugs from her property either. Did she know about it? Condone it?

[lew]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

But it doesn't matter if they announced or not. They had a LEGAL no-knock warrant. The warrant >> rights of owners of the property being searched. She has every right in the world to defend against INTRUDERS. Shit, if these were cops there because someone called them from a neighbor's saying "there is nobody home yet I see lights" and the cops were walking around that house and the lady shot them...perfectly fine. These cops weren't investigating anything...they had enough evidence to secure a warrant. They thought there would be some peril to their lives by announcing, so they got a no knock. For you to keep calling this lady "innocent" is just stupid. She tried to kill 3 cops. That is not innocent. We still don't know the connection between her and the guy selling drugs from her property either. Did she know about it? Condone it?

Knowing about someone selling drugs is not a crime.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by lew

Knowing about someone selling drugs is not a crime.

Allowing them to use your property is.

[lew]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Allowing them to use your property is.

Not necessarily.

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by AVengeance

Maybe it's that macho bustin' down doors TV-show version of police I don't share that makes this problematic. You see the police as superheros, and gun-wielding grandmas as supervillians. Nothing can change that. The problem, of course, is that the police are not superheros. The realistic solutions are nut busting down the doors and gunning down the supervillians in search of a more peaceful, secure neighborhood. There are MANY other ways to lock down the premises, and they would be much less likely to have resulted in death or permenant injury to anyone. This macho superhero shit just escalates a situation.

Okay, then let's skip the vague suggestions and get to specifics...

The police have obtained a search warrant for a guy's home because they have probable cause to believe he is hiding 1 kilo of cocaine inside. You're the police. What do you do?

Please, tell me a way that the police can search for the cocaine without giving him (or someone else in the house) an opportunity to flush it down the toilet and without "macho superhero tactics" like barging in unexpectedly. Let's assume several people live in the house, and there is no convenient time they can enter when no one is home...how about we even assume, for the sake of specifics, he has an old grandmother living there who almost never leaves. The police aren't sure if she is participating in the drug dealing.

I await your answer...

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

Okay, then let's skip the vague suggestions and get to specifics...

The police have obtained a search warrant for a guy's home because they have probable cause to believe he is hiding 1 kilo of cocaine inside. You're the police. What do you do?

Please, tell me a way that the police can search for the cocaine without giving him (or someone else in the house) an opportunity to flush it down the toilet and without "macho superhero tactics" like barging in unexpectedly.

I await your answer...

You're not going to get a satisfactory answer because this debate stems from the whole "the war on drugs is stupid" deal and that's fine...but when people blame cops for doing their job and doing it within all bounds of the law...that is just retarded.

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

You're not going to get a satisfactory answer because this debate stems from the whole "the war on drugs is stupid" deal and that's fine...

Yeah, that and "the police are blood thirsty killers who enjoy barging into people's homes." I can't believe people think that some middle aged cop with a family to come home to actually wants to barge into a drug dealer's house with nothing but a bullet proof vest and a pistol. If police are going to do that, there's a very pressing reason.