Iraqis start burning each other alive infront of army posts

[Thorgrim]

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Shiite militiamen grabbed six Sunnis as they left Friday worship services, doused them with kerosene and burned them alive near an Iraqi army post. The soldiers did not intervene, police Capt. Jamil Hussein said.

The savage revenge attack for Thursday's slaying of 215 people in the Shiite Sadr City slum occurred as members of the Mahdi Army militia burned four mosques, and several homes while killing an unknown number of Sunni residents in the once-mixed Hurriyah neighborhood of Baghdad.

Gunmen loyal to radical anti-American Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr began taking over the neighborhood this summer and most of its Sunni residents already had fled.

Shiites burn six Sunni worshippers alive - Yahoo! News

This looks like another turning point for the worse, who knows where this will go in the next few weeks

So the army just sat there and watched...interesting, it looks like our training program has been a complete failure, and it looks more like no matter how long we stay, they'll collapse the moment we leave, so what do we do...stay for another 10-20 years?

That means (at our current rate) sacrificing about 12,000-24,000 young american soldiers to try and prevent an Iraqi civil war

Is it worth it? When we can sit in Kuwait, Bahrain etc, and strike at a moments notice at any terrorist location...just like we did with Zarqawi

[lock]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Shiite militiamen grabbed six Sunnis as they left Friday worship services, doused them with kerosene and burned them alive near an Iraqi army post. The soldiers did not intervene, police Capt. Jamil Hussein said.

The savage revenge attack for Thursday's slaying of 215 people in the Shiite Sadr City slum occurred as members of the Mahdi Army militia burned four mosques, and several homes while killing an unknown number of Sunni residents in the once-mixed Hurriyah neighborhood of Baghdad.

Gunmen loyal to radical anti-American Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr began taking over the neighborhood this summer and most of its Sunni residents already had fled.

Shiites burn six Sunni worshippers alive - Yahoo! News

This looks like another turning point for the worse, who knows where this will go in the next few weeks

So the army just sat there and watched...interesting, it looks like our training program has been a complete failure, and it looks more like no matter how long we stay, they'll collapse the moment we leave, so what do we do...stay for another 10-20 years?

That means (at our current rate) sacrificing about 12,000-24,000 young american soldiers to try and prevent an Iraqi civil war

Is it worth it? When we can sit in Kuwait, Bahrain etc, and strike at a moments notice at any terrorist location...just like we did with Zarqawi

Thats what my thoughts have been since the start. The reason we dont pull out is because as long as bush is hearding the redneck sheep into doing what he wants we stick. The war to leave must be fought at the doors of the dumb people. Thats america for you.

-Lock

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by lock

Thats what my thoughts have been since the start. The reason we dont pull out is because as long as bush is hearding the redneck sheep into doing what he wants we stick. The war to leave must be fought at the doors of the dumb people. Thats america for you.

-Lock

Pulling out wont solve anything though.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

Pulling out wont solve anything though.

I'd saying dying American soldiers is a problem and saving their lives is a solution

[thatguyoverthere]

Yesterday was the single biggest attack since the start of the war, over 215 dead. Now they're burning each other alive right in front of Iraqi army posts, and the Iraqi army won't lift a finger to help prevent another human being from being burned alive. It's a low grade civil war that has just shifted into another level.

Man, it's a total mess over there. What more is there really to say at this point? Every option is bad. All we can argue about is which one is the least bad option.

Renounce war. Just let your love of war go, and stand up for peace.

If human beings are organizing themselves to go out and burn other human beings, perhaps we should be focusing our attention on combating this sickness in humanity, instead of placing our trust in explosive force to solve our disagreements.

[SpicyMcVoodoo]

I wonder if the people burning and torturing others are just sociopaths, who if they had born in America, would be either Jeffrey Dahmers or just supressing their twisted urges. I think no matter how bad a war is, a psychologically normal person could not stomach picking someone up from prayer and burning him alive. Same goes for sawing a hostage's head off.

[SICKGUY]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

Pulling out wont solve anything though.

and doing what we are doing wont solve anything either.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

Pulling out wont solve anything though.

And what are we trying to resolve? We resolved the whole "Saddam is a bad man" issue. We have no reason to be there anymore.

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

I'd saying dying American soldiers is a problem and saving their lives is a solution

Pulling out will just make the 2800 American's deaths worthless and make the US an even better target in the future. Bin laden saw our reaction in Beirut and Somalia and determined that we are weak and wont fight back for long.

Originally Posted by Donkey®

And what are we trying to resolve? We resolved the whole "Saddam is a bad man" issue. We have no reason to be there anymore.

Leave now and it another Saddam or Ayatollah will take over.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

Pulling out will just make the 2800 American's deaths worthless and make the US an even better target in the future. Bin laden saw our reaction in Beirut and Somalia and determined that we are weak and wont fight back for long.

Leave now and it another Saddam or Ayatollah will take over.

Better target? Oh yeah, that canadian and mexican border is so secure, they were almost across but Iraq has them distracted, silly terrorists just light some fireworks and they can't stop staring

How stupid do you think these guys are?

You really think 15,000 Iraqi insurgents are going to stop grabbing for power in Iraq, abandon their homeland and take life rafts across the ocean to attack the US?

bin Laden already thinks we're weak because his group is still fine and dandy after killing US soliders for how many years, and the Taliban is on the rise

what, you think if we stay to spite him he'll quit? or if we leave he'll somehow start catapulting terrorists to america?

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Better target? Oh yeah, that canadian and mexican border is so secure, they were almost across but Iraq has them distracted, silly terrorists just light some fireworks and they can't stop staring

How stupid do you think these guys are?

You really think 15,000 Iraqi insurgents are going to stop grabbing for power in Iraq, abandon their homeland and take life rafts across the ocean to attack the US?

random babbling again ?

[avsp]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

[... snip]
Is it worth it? When we can sit in Kuwait, Bahrain etc, and strike at a moments notice at any terrorist location...just like we did with Zarqawi

Isnt there a risk that this would just spread the conflict to 'Kuwait, Bahrain etc'?

[avsp]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

I'd saying dying American soldiers is a problem and saving their lives is a solution

But is it the most important problem?

Also are soldiers for 'dying', afterall they are all volunteers & thats why they should be honoured.

If bodycounts are to determine policy then then the whole action was pointless in the first place.

[avsp]

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

I wonder if the people burning and torturing others are just sociopaths, who if they had born in America, would be either Jeffrey Dahmers or just supressing their twisted urges. I think no matter how bad a war is, a psychologically normal person could not stomach picking someone up from prayer and burning him alive. Same goes for sawing a hostage's head off.

I think we have to remember the environment that they grew up in.

IIUC prime time Iraq TV during the Saddam era would occasionally include such things as the mayor of Mosual have nails hammered into his head.

I suspect that there may very well be a greater proportion of 'twisted minds' in Iraq, but also I think its a 'use of weapons' situation. You use what you've got & they are well aquainted with the use of terror as a weapon.

As for "no matter how bad a war is, a psychologically normal person". I think war causes people not to be, at least temporarily, psychologically normal. I mean just look at the behaviour of some US draftees in Vietnam, ..., there are loads of examples even in the Bible.

[avsp]

Diesel66
Pulling out wont solve anything though.

Originally Posted by SICKGUY

and doing what we are doing wont solve anything either.

Hasnt this been obvious for some time?

Wasnt it always an obvious risk, even from before the get go?

Why was this risk, seemingly, totally ignored by the planners of the operation? And why was no remedial action taken?

How widespread is the realisation that "we're f*cked"?
Does it matter that, seemingly, it isnt incredibly widespread?

[avsp]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

And what are we trying to resolve? We resolved the whole "Saddam is a bad man" issue. We have no reason to be there anymore.

Do you not feel that the coalition forces are, at least to some extent, keeping the lid of the sectarian violence?

Or do you feel that this is not a good rerason to stay?

Do you not recognise the risk of the conflict escalating & sucking in the direct involvement of neighbouring states? Oir does this not matter?

[avsp]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

Pulling out will just make the 2800 American's deaths worthless and make the US an even better target in the future. Bin laden saw our reaction in Beirut and Somalia and determined that we are weak and wont fight back for long.

Seemingly, he was right.

Does the way the war was 'sold' to the peoples of the west in anyway militate against now bolstering public support for the long haul?

Does this point matter at all?

Even if WMD had been found do you suppose that there would either be a lesser insurgency or greater domestic Coalition support for the counter-insurgentcy effort?

Leave now and it another Saddam or Ayatollah will take over.

This may be a satisfactory option. Is there any chance that the 'west' could back such a person? His arms length proxy status might allow him to be effectively brutal. Admittedly this POV presupposes that avoiding WWIII is of greater import than the 'freedom' of the Iraqi people

[avsp]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Better target? Oh yeah, that canadian and mexican border is so secure, they were almost across but Iraq has them distracted, silly terrorists just light some fireworks and they can't stop staring

How stupid do you think these guys are?

You really think 15,000 Iraqi insurgents are going to stop grabbing for power in Iraq, abandon their homeland and take life rafts across the ocean to attack the US?

bin Laden already thinks we're weak because his group is still fine and dandy after killing US soliders for how many years, and the Taliban is on the rise

what, you think if we stay to spite him he'll quit? or if we leave he'll somehow start catapulting terrorists to america?

You really think none of the '15,000' will try to attack Coalition interests outside of Iraq?
Do you suppose that they are all members of a unified disciplined force?
Are there no ambitious 'self-starters' amongst such a large group?
Isnt it in the nature of their struggle & being to encourage such mindsets?

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

random babbling again ?

This is unacceptable behavior If you have nothing more to say about that post then please to not say things that are unconstructive and could potentially pull the thread down.