Religious Freedom? Not if you're a Muslim in Congress

[Ardentfrost]

Originally Posted by MoTaVa

We had best protect our culture, tradition, and our asses.

I for one do not believe our founding fathers ever envisioned a day when an embattled religion would find its way into our government. Islam is in turmoil. They have not progressed enough to tolerate the existance of other muslims with differing philosophies. Baptists and Catholics dont blow each other up. Keep Ireland out of this please.
So is our muslim congressman a shea or suni? Or does he know. Where will the first bomb go off after he is sworn in? I mean you know the opposite faction is gonna be pissed. So lets fill the hill with shea and suni, because I hate feeling safe in the mall.

Wow you confused me. It's like, at one point I think you're being sarcastic, then I'm not sure, then I think you're being sarcastic again, then at the end my head was spinning.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by garbagemanlb

Women's rights, minority rights, worker's rights, I'd say change has always been an important part of our culture.

That kind of change is still far too superficial compared to what I'm talking about. It was the culture of this country and the values it was founded on that made those changes possible. We are wanting to change the core foundation of this country, however. We don't need that.

[7960]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

That kind of change is still far too superficial compared to what I'm talking about. It was the culture of this country and the values it was founded on that made those changes possible. We are wanting to change the core foundation of this country, however. We don't need that.

The country was founded on religious freedom. Doesn't this clearly illustrate that?

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by 7960

The country was founded on religious freedom. Doesn't this clearly illustrate that?

This is not an issue of Religious freedom. When everyone goes to court, don't they swear on the Bible, no matter what they believe? This isn't about religion, this isn't about true beliefs, it's about culture and the way this country was set up. It's symbolism to the founding of this country and what it was founded on, not personal beliefs.

[Ardentfrost]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

This is not an issue of Religious freedom. When everyone goes to court, don't they swear on the Bible, no matter what they believe? This isn't about religion, this isn't about true beliefs, it's about culture and the way this country was set up. It's symbolism to the founding of this country and what it was founded on, not personal beliefs.

Wouldn't you NOT want someone to swear on a Bible who didn't believe what it said? If that document means nothing to them, wouldn't swearing on it also mean nothing?

I agree with the people who say that the "swearing in" thing is pretty insignificant and should be implicit, however actually saying the words that you swear is a reminder to one's self that you are telling everyone that what you say is the truth. Having the Bible there can confuse the matter in how I mentioned before (the Bible means nothing to them, so swearing ON the Bible means nothing to them), but I do think the verbal swearing that is recorded by steno and in people's minds is also important. What they do it on could simply be "these courts" or the constitution... or they could even say "Do you swear by penalty of purgury that what you are about to say is true to the best of your knowledge?"

[7960]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

This is not an issue of Religious freedom. When everyone goes to court, don't they swear on the Bible, no matter what they believe?

Not if they don't want to, no.

Since that was wrong, do I continue with the rest of your post?

[MoTaVa]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

Wow you confused me. It's like, at one point I think you're being sarcastic, then I'm not sure, then I think you're being sarcastic again, then at the end my head was spinning.

Only the last sentence was meant to be sarcastic.
I was just looking forward. One muslim congressperson. Then two. Then 10. Then we can look forward to religious sectarian war here at home (then all you liberals and dems can call that civil war as well). Or perhaps a full blown terrorist strike from foriegn lands to protest the fact that we have more suni than shea in our congress. Or vise versa.

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by MoTaVa

We had best protect our culture, tradition, and our asses.

I for one do not believe our founding fathers ever envisioned a day when an embattled religion would find its way into our government. Islam is in turmoil. They have not progressed enough to tolerate the existance of other muslims with differing philosophies. Baptists and Catholics dont blow each other up. Keep Ireland out of this please.
So is our muslim congressman a shea or suni? Or does he know. Where will the first bomb go off after he is sworn in? I mean you know the opposite faction is gonna be pissed. So lets fill the hill with shea and suni, because I hate feeling safe in the mall.

So Christians never blow people up, but lets ignore a bloody terrorist conflict they faught for 60 years?

I don't think our founding fathers invisioned any religion working it's way into government.
Does it really threaten you christians so much to have people of other faiths in the governing process?

Also, you guys keep talking about us loosing out culture, but are neglecting to name one thing that's making that happen. Lets hear the list.

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by MoTaVa

Only the last sentence was meant to be sarcastic.
I was just looking forward. One muslim congressperson. Then two. Then 10. Then we can look forward to religious sectarian war here at home (then all you liberals and dems can call that civil war as well). Or perhaps a full blown terrorist strike from foriegn lands to protest the fact that we have more suni than shea in our congress. Or vise versa.

I thought they already wanted to kill us and would do anything to destroy America?

You think this will make it worse than that? Does our electing an American muslim into our government cause foreign muslims to take up arms against us when they wouldn't have otherwise?

[Ardentfrost]

Originally Posted by MoTaVa

Only the last sentence was meant to be sarcastic.
I was just looking forward. One muslim congressperson. Then two. Then 10. Then we can look forward to religious sectarian war here at home (then all you liberals and dems can call that civil war as well). Or perhaps a full blown terrorist strike from foriegn lands to protest the fact that we have more suni than shea in our congress. Or vise versa.

First of all, Hellooooo Straw Man!

Second, only a democracy can make it so that we could be politically taken over by any one group of people. If you don't like the idea of that, then I suggest hoping we move back to being more of a republic.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

First of all, Hellooooo Straw Man!

Second, only a democracy can make it so that we could be politically taken over by any one group of people. If you don't like the idea of that, then I suggest hoping we move back to being more of a republic.

[nbiggershaft]

The fact that there is any oppostition to letting him swear on his own holy book in this forum is fairly dissapointing.

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by motivez

Adhering to "American culture" would require respecting freedom of religion.

There is in imposition on this mans freedom of Religion. He is not being forced to do anything. What he is trying to do is substitute our cultural and historic traditions, some of which do involve religion and god, for his own. That is not acceptable.

As for the arguments to remove the oath on a bible, that is another issue. Make your case that this violates the establiment clause in the constitution. Your feelings are not relevant to legal argument....

[nbiggershaft]

Define Xenophobia.
-------->

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

There is in imposition on this mans freedom of Religion. He is not being forced to do anything. What he is trying to do is substitute our cultural and historic traditions, some of which do involve religion and god, for his own. That is not acceptable.

[Diamond Cross]

What exactly is "American Culture"? America is a secular nation for one thing and is based on the premise of "right to life liberty and pursuit of happiness", but what exactly does that mean?

Each and every single Ammendment is about giving citizens the choice to live life as they see fit. The First Ammendment is the very embodiment of choice in the right of saying what we want, how we want to express ourselves, who we want to be around, and freedom of the press, and the freedom to address our grieviances against government infractions.

Though many of those choices are being attacked every day.

We have President bush turning America into an armed camp because of the threat of terrorism and 911. We have Christian groups attacking those choices because they feel, albeit wrongly, that America is a Christian Nation and should reflect Chrfistian values above all else and no one else should apply. A common theme is "if you don't like my country get the fuck out.


There are some things that are purely Amerfican, Football (not soccer), ?Baseball, hotdogs apple pie and Chevrolet. We are a melting pot of culture. We are know for being "The Great Experiment" because our founding fathers wanted America to be a sedcular nation but unitedand respectful of others cultures. But in the modern age, people just aren't respectuful because of the polarizartion of Americans through the divisive nature of partisan politics.

America is a melting pot and not truly all just one culture. We have the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Itlaians, Irish, Spanish, Germans, and manyh more groups, not to mention a wide blend of religions, from Pagan to Satanic worship to Christian to nature to Buddism, and many more.

America is on the verge of faltgering though, because people are losing respect for other people as each year millions of Americans go to the big government to enact divisive legislation designed to protect their own interests, or to force people to be more moral because they can not convinve them otherwise to live they way that they desire others to live. Nany-state laws are a good example of this.

But these people jsut can not understand the harm these kinds of laws does. All they do is drive a wedge so deep that someday in the future there maqy be nothing that will unite Americans and cause Americans to be at each other's throats based on things like religion and political ideology.

It is not the enemies from without that tear America apart, it will be the divisiveness within.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Diamond Cross

It is not the enemies from without that tear America apart, it will be the divisiveness within.

Agreed.

[imind]

jesus h. christ. (pun intended)

wtf are you people complaining about? some dude wants to take an oath on the quran and you are all huffy about american culture being ignored? how significant was that act of that man/woman placing their hand on that book? do you even remember it happening, ever, in any swearing in ceremony, beyond peripherally?

this has nothing to do with american culture, and it has been proven by how quickly it was dropped immediately when it was discovered that jews had asked for a torah.

and not to get off topic but, from what i understand christians aren't even supposed to take oaths.

James 5:12
12Above all, my brothers, do not swear—not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. Let your "Yes" be yes, and your "No," no, or you will be condemned.

matthew 6 33:37
Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

all new testament, btw, but never mind this.

how divisive was it to this country until christians started complaining about it?

[MoTaVa]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

First of all, Hellooooo Straw Man!

LOL

Look I really don't care who swears on what. But because of what seems to be rapidly escalating violence between suni and shea I worry about their fight finding its way here. They (the fanatics and radicals) do already hate us and want to kill us, we dont need them killing more of us while trying to kill each other too. And because of the wide spread fanaticism that is currently plaguing islam I am also concerned about loyalties. Look at france, or better yet Lebanon. I do not want to take away freedoms but I do want to be vigilant. I tend to agree with the oath on the Constitution idea.

[imind]

This is not an issue of Religious freedom. When everyone goes to court, don't they swear on the Bible, no matter what they believe? This isn't about religion, this isn't about true beliefs, it's about culture and the way this country was set up.

it is about religious beliefs, as you're suggesting your 'cultural concerns' should trump his religious beliefs, over an oath of office articulated in constitution as having no religious tests associated with it. you're cultural concern are subversive to our most important 'founding document'.