OK gun lobby and Property rights folks...let's hear how great this was

[nbiggershaft]

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

If we could only merge this with a thread about how the war on drugs is a failure because you can get them so easily illegally! The point would be that someone intent on commiting a major crime with a gun is not worried about the legal possesion of said weapon!

I am nor expert, but don't you need a permit to carry a gun in a car? Because the car operates on public roads and property. This is not the same as ones private property, as a home or a business would be!

I favor gun rights, but I think this arguement is flawed. Obviously gun laws wouldn't effect high stakes bank robberies. The arguement is that having a gun is dangerous for everyday Joes who bought their gun legally to fly off the handle and shoot a kid for egging his car. This isn't going to make up a large percentage, but it's naive to think there isn't a large chunk of the law abiding population who are incapable of seeing red and shooting someone in some crazy situation. A responsible gun owner should know there are situations where carying a gun is inapropriate, like his morning or evening commute.

[Diamond Cross]

Defensive firearm use ranges from 800,000 to 2.5 million times a year. That's a lot of lives firearms save.

[nbiggershaft]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

In most states, yes.

I doubt they had one.

What kind of hoops to they make you go through to get a permit that would make you think that?

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by Diamond Cross

Defensive firearm use ranges from 800,000 to 2.5 million times a year. That's a lot of lives firearms save.

That study is flawed, it used a small number and then multiplied it to match the entire US population, and its several decades old

[Thorgrim]

As Diamond pointed out, almost all guns used in crimes come from legal purchasers who negligently handle their firearms

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

What kind of hoops to they make you go through to get a permit that would make you think that?

Background check, safety class, (in some states two certificates), no record, finger printing, pictures, $100 or more (all obviously kept at the police station) and a significant waiting period.

Obviously people who are willing to go through all this troule to obey the law aren't usually the ones willing to shoot kids who are screwing around. If these people were willing to shoot a 14 yr old, they are willing to aquire illegal guns.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

As Diamond pointed out, almost all guns used in crimes come from legal purchasers who negligently handle their firearms

On the contrary, he pointed out quite the opposite:

Contrary to myth and misrepresentation, most murders are not committed by previously law-abiding citizens either going berserk, or because a gun was handy during a moment of uncontrollable rage: suddenly "blow-away" their spouse, friend, neighbor, acquaintance, or all four.

Studies conducted at both the local and national level indicate the overwhelming majority of murders are committed by people with previous criminal records. Even a significant percentage of homicide victims themselves have criminal records.

Domestic homicides as well are preceded by a long history of violence. The "crime of passion" homicide is much more the exception rather than the rule.

[RMNIXON]

It was once a rule in law enforcement that most murders were committed by people known by the victim. They were crimes of passion. That is no longer the case. You are now more likely to be killed by a thug who would just as soon eliminate a crime witness. There is certainly little worry of the criminal justice system or death penalty.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

On the contrary, he pointed out quite the opposite:

that says nothing about where they got the guns

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

It was once a rule in law enforcement that most murders were committed by people known by the victim. They were crimes of passion. That is no longer the case. You are now more likely to be killed by a thug who would just as soon eliminate a crime witness. There is certainly little worry of the criminal justice system or death penalty.

Statistics showing white non-urban citizens have a higher rate of being murdered by gangs than crimes of passion?

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

that says nothing about where they got the guns

It says everything about where they got the guns; people with previous criminal records can't legally purchase guns.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

It says everything about where they got the guns; people with previous criminal records can't legally purchase guns.

Yes so:

almost all guns used in crimes come from legal purchasers who negligently handle their firearms

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Yes so:

almost all guns used in crimes come from legal purchasers who negligently handle their firearms

No, because people with previous criminal records purchased them illegally.

We've already established that most murders don't come from legal purchasers (only 4 posts back no less):

most murders are not committed by previously law-abiding citizens either going berserk, or because a gun was handy during a moment of uncontrollable rage

[motivez]

The question isn't whether or not they come from "legal purchasers," but rather were the guns used at one time legally purchased?

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by motivez

The question isn't whether or not they come from "legal purchasers," but rather were the guns used at one time legally purchased?

I have no doubt there are many ways to get illegal guns. The black market is quite extensive all around the world.

I have no doubt many were legally purchased at one time. How long ago and from whom noone can know.

[Thorgrim]

If a member of the NRA who shares the use of several guns with his father, while short on cash, takes the handgun his father bought that morning to the local urban center and sells it "illegally" to a gang member who hours later in the day kills a person...

There is a direct less than one day link between a legal purchase of a firearm and a "illegally obtained firearm used to murder"

Again, its the negligence of firearm owners

[Kytro]

There is no plausible link between legal firearm ownership levels and deaths caused by firearms.

Laws the outlaw are ineffective.

I don't think people should want firearms for self defense, I think that is a dangerous idea. Nations where people have guns to "defend" themselves often find people using them in inappropriate situations. However making it illegal does not solve the problem

[lew]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

So, is this the type of behavior you advocate? He was protecting his property. This is a PRIME EXAMPLE as to why guns and people need to be regulated. I don't give two shits what the Constitution says,

[lew]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

So less government agencies that conduct domestic spying?

Yes.


Unlike hypocritical Democrats and Republicans, we libertarians actually want less government in all realms.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by lew

Yes.


Unlike hypocritical Democrats and Republicans, we libertarians actually want less government in all realms.

He was talking to Ballz though.