The ACLU Nativity *pic*

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

The founders who held communists beliefs did so in their youth when they had little to no knowledge of how STALINIST soviet russia worked

When outside information was finally recieved, that sort of communist was roundly rejected, the founder himself wrote a book: A New Slavery (describing communism and its horrors)

When communism first broke out, it was a fascinating idea, and youths were certainly attracted to it, even today the idea of it working its very enticing, almost everyone would love to live in a TRUE communist state...because as described its utopia

To say how that is some sort of ACLU support for stalinism...its ridiculous

Many of the founders were communist. In fact, they kicked out many members decades after they were founded because they were still communist! To say they had no communist roots, when they themselves admit to kicking out many of their founders for being ... *gasp* communist, is absurd. Essentially all of their founders have communist roots and many of their founders continued their ideology for many years after the organization was started. They admitted to the problem by kicking many of those members out for communist reasonings.

The ACLU spawned out of previous organizations which were... communist, and many of the founders and high players in the ACLU were communist and served on the organization for many, many years. They slowly turned socialist, but many would still say they have socialist practices and one can make a very strong argument that they slant very far left.

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

you should make another thread about this...but its like charity work (its fun!) you don't do it for the "reward" you do it for the betterment of man and for respect...not for "cash"

Working your ass off for some more pieces of paper being thrown your way, sounds like what someone would say to debase a stripper

Not talking about just having more money. The whole entrepreneurs experience doesn't exist in a communist environment. Communistism = no great new inventions or methods.

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

Have you read the 1st admendment ?

The govt cannot infringe on my religious beliefs.



If they banned a black group or a gay group it would be illegal discrimination, so how is it good to ban a group of people with a religious belief ?



And dont use the argument that the Boy scouts are discriminatory themselves because every club is discrimnatory

As long as they ban any religion from doing it, it isn't discrimination.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

As long as they ban any religion from doing it, it isn't discrimination.

Sure it is, it's discrimination towards religion. What if they banned groups that didn't have a religious affiliation, would that not be discriminatory? Why are public facilities turned down to people of faith? That's not discriminatory?

I can't not hire someone because of their religious beliefs or lack there of. But the government can tell the Boy Scouts they can't use a park because of their religious beliefs. That's not absurd to you?

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Many of the founders were communist. In fact, they kicked out many members decades after they were founded because they were still communist! To say they had no communist roots, when they themselves admit to kicking out many of their founders for being ... *gasp* communist, is absurd. Essentially all of their founders have communist roots and many of their founders continued their ideology for many years after the organization was started. They admitted to the problem by kicking many of those members out for communist reasonings.

The ACLU spawned out of previous organizations which were... communist, and many of the founders and high players in the ACLU were communist and served on the organization for many, many years. They slowly turned socialist, but many would still say they have socialist practices and one can make a very strong argument that they slant very far left.

Wait...so kicking people out for being communists makes them communist?

You just talked yourself in a circle.


The ACLU defends civil rights for groups that don't have other orginizations in place to defend them.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

Wait...so kicking people out for being communists makes them communist?

No kicking people out because they had so many communist founders and their organization was moving away from that ideology means they had communist roots at their inception.

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Sure it is, it's discrimination towards religion. What if they banned groups that didn't have a religious affiliation, would that not be discriminatory? Why are public facilities turned down to people of faith? That's not discriminatory?

I can't not hire someone because of their religious beliefs or lack there of. But the government can tell the Boy Scouts they can't use a park because of their religious beliefs.

Yep, when it comes to public land use it isn't.

What part of "No state land for religious use" is discrimitory. You already have a nearly free space to practice your religion. It's called a church.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

Yep, when it comes to public land use it isn't.

What part of "No state land for religious use" is discrimitory. You already have a nearly free space to practice your religion. It's called a church.

Where do you see this "no state land for religious use"?

What makes it ok in your mind for a group of religious protectors to go to a public place and slam religion, but a religious group can't have a picnic at a park?

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Where do you see this "no state land for religious use"?

It's state endorsement of religion.

Originally Posted by JaJae

What makes it ok in your mind for a group of religious protectors to go to a public place and slam religion, but a religious group can't have a picnic at a park?

Religious protectors slamming religion? What are you talking about?

A religous group can go have a picnic at the park. Tell everyone to meet you there.
I'm sorry that you can't have full blown events there though. The area is still open for you and your family to use.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

It's state endorsement of religion.

You're dodging the main question. Why should a religious group be banned from public property?

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Many of the founders were communist. In fact, they kicked out many members decades after they were founded because they were still communist! To say they had no communist roots, when they themselves admit to kicking out many of their founders for being ... *gasp* communist, is absurd. Essentially all of their founders have communist roots and many of their founders continued their ideology for many years after the organization was started. They admitted to the problem by kicking many of those members out for communist reasonings.

The ACLU spawned out of previous organizations which were... communist, and many of the founders and high players in the ACLU were communist and served on the organization for many, many years. They slowly turned socialist, but many would still say they have socialist practices and one can make a very strong argument that they slant very far left.

It's pretty easy to sit back and throw spitballs talking about people who died before you were born

Ya know what, all our US presidents until Kennedy were idiots because they didn't push hard for a complete Civil Rights bill as signed in the 1960s

wow, wasn't that easy! America was founded by people who were either slave owners or slave owner sympathizers, boo!

"communist roots" is a vague term it could be applied to a huge chunk of the country in 1931, in fact historian think there might have been a POPULAR communist uprising

You're intelligent enough to know that being a communist-thinker in 1910 and being a Stalinist Communist are completely different things

Many of Socrates students and Plato's own uncle went on to lead a regime of terror in Athens
Critias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maybe they should have killed all of Socrates students and Plato and burned all his works because look how some people totally misapplied what they learned

Before the US entered WW2, and before the public even fully knew of how Stalin was handling Russia, the ACLU took out any communist, even if they were anti-Stalin

And you're stretching with the socialism, and even if you were right, who cares? We have a United States Senator who is a socialist, is socialist supposed to be a slur...because they don't get a lot of votes in general electiosn and aren't very popular? I guess I could call someone a libertarian as a slur word

[Diamond Cross]

So if Wiccans held their nature rituals on a Solstice on an Army base, that would be state endorsement of religion?

[Diamond Cross]

And, what if Satanists hold their rituals on say, a state run park such as Yellowstone. Is that state endorsement of religion?

[JaJae]

It's pretty easy to sit back and throw spitballs talking about people who died before you were born

I'm not throwing spitballs. I'm stating facts that you're choosing to ignore. I said nothing negative about them or the ideals of communism, just stated the facts as they were. It's very easy to have the facts after they've died, because their speeches and actions have gone down in history and recorded. Which makes proving my point extremely easy.

Ya know what, all our US presidents until Kennedy were idiots because they didn't push hard for a complete Civil Rights bill as signed in the 1960s

What does Kennedy and the civil rights bill have to do with this topic?

wow, wasn't that easy! America was founded by people who were either slave owners or slave owner sympathizers, boo!

What is the relevence here?

"communist roots" is a vague term it could be applied to a huge chunk of the country in 1931, in fact historian think there might have been a POPULAR communist uprising

If you consider it vague and a huge chunk of the country was communist in 1931, then why are you arguing against this?

You're intelligent enough to know that being a communist-thinker in 1910 and being a Stalinist Communist are completely different things

I never stated they were Stalinist, just that they had communist roots. Which you have been wrongly disagreeing with.

Many of Socrates students and Plato's own uncle went on to lead a regime of terror in Athens
Critias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Still having trouble understanding the relevence...

Maybe they should have killed all of Socrates students and Plato and burned all his works because look how some people totally misapplied what they learned

Still have no idea what relevence this has to the thread.

Before the US entered WW2, and before the public even fully knew of how Stalin was handling Russia, the ACLU took out any communist, even if they were anti-Stalin

Correction, any outspoken and fully admitted communist.

And you're stretching with the socialism, and even if you were right, who cares? We have a United States Senator who is a socialist, is socialist supposed to be a slur...because they don't get a lot of votes in general electiosn and aren't very popular? I guess I could call someone a libertarian as a slur word

If you don't care why all the irrelevent information in this post? Where did I incinuate it was a slur? I definitely wouldn't disagree that you would call someone a libertarian as a slur word. But what does this have to do with anything relevent to the ACLU and their communist roots or the notion that they moved towards socialism and now are considered by many to be very far left?

[Thorgrim]

I thought we were talking about the OP as the main topic of this thread, which states:

"The three Wise Men are Lenin, Marx, and Stalin because the founders of the ACLU were strident supporters of Soviet style Communism"

I've been arguing against the topics premise that are Stalinist roots in the ACLU, as I've stated their founder wrote a brutal anti-soviet communist book

Then you play the "oh im just highlighting a historical fact, I don't see what all these arguments are dealing with...its all irrelevant" please, put it "communist" and "ACLU" into google and see the first 100 pages that pop up, its all about how the ACLU is anti American/illogical/Stalinist because their founders believed in utopian ideals in their younger years

It's also clearly what this OP is about

[Kytro]

Originally Posted by JaJae

The founders of the ACLU were communist and did have an agenda. You could make a very strong argument that they still have an agenda.

From wikipedia:

In St. Louis, Baldwin became greatly influenced by the radical social movement of the anarchist Emma Goldman. He joined the Industrial Workers of the World and developed a sympathy for the Soviet Union and for Communism that lasted until 1939 when he was disillusioned by the Nazi-Soviet Pact and broke off all radical ties. In 1927, he had visited the Soviet Union and wrote a book, Liberty Under the Soviets, which contained extensive praise for the Soviet Union. However, he later denounced communism in his book, A New Slavery, which condemned "the inhuman communist police state tyranny" [1]. In the 1940s, Baldwin led the campaign to purge the ACLU of Communist Party members [2].

Not really a communists, even though he had involvement with them early on. More socialist.

Jeannette Rankin (June 11, 1880 – May 18, 1973) was the first woman elected to the United States House of Representatives and the first female member of Congress. A Republican and a lifelong pacifist, she was the only member of Congress to vote against United States entry into both World War I and World War II. Additionally, she led resistance to the Vietnam War.
...
She was founding Vice-President of the American Civil Liberties Union and a founding member of the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom.

Not a communist

June 25, 1881 - July 8, 1928) was a lawyer, antimilitarist, feminist, socialist, and journalist. She was born in Marlborough, Massachusetts and graduated from Vassar College in 1903, receiving an M.A. in sociology from Columbia University in 1904. She was second in the class of 1907 at New York University Law School.
...
Eastman also became executive director of the American Union Against Militarism, which lobbied against America's entrance into the European war and more successfully against war with Mexico in 1916, sought to remove profiteering from arms manufacturing, and campaigned against conscription and imperial adventures. When the United States entered World War I, Eastman organized with Roger Baldwin the National Civil Liberties Bureau to protect conscientious objectors, or in her words: To maintain something over here that will be worth coming back to when the weary war is over. The NCLB grew into the American Civil Liberties Union, with Baldwin at the head and Eastman functioning as attorney in charge.

Socialist. No real mention of communism.

Albert DeSilver (1888-1924) was a founding member of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU).

DeSilver graduated Yale in 1910 and then earned a law degree at Columbia Law School. Though he was being groomed for a place in New York's legal establishment, he resigned his law practice in 1918 to become one of the founding members of the National Civil Liberties Bureau (later known as the American Civil Liberties Union) in order to devote himself full-time to defending conscientious objectors, other citizens, and immigrants against unconstitutional persecution under new laws such as the Espionage Act of 1917 and the Sedition Act of 1918. During World War I, DeSilver used his own war bonds to post bail for defendants in free speech cases.

Once again...communism?

[lew]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

and there are no "federation credits"

Federation credit - Memory Alpha - A Wikia wiki

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

As long as they ban any religion from doing it, it isn't discrimination.

Public parks should be equal access to everyone.

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

It's state endorsement of religion.

How is allowing the public to use public land endorsing anything ?

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by lew

Federation credit - Memory Alpha - A Wikia wiki

Ronald D. Moore commented: "By the time I joined TNG, Gene had decreed that money most emphatically did NOT exist in the Federation, nor did "credits" and that was that