Law Question - Hypothetical Situation - Page 2

Dumpy Dooby · 12-10-2006, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

I see a bunch of you saying the same thing yet nobody can point to a LAW.

Here in America, we call it "s t e a l i n g."

Donkey® · 12-10-2006, 06:03 PM

Ok...so everyone says it's stealing. I can agree with it to a point. When you walk into any establishment, you have to abide by their rules or they won't serve you. With that said...I don't see this EVER being prosecuted unless he walked off with the item without paying. If anyone else can see it, let me know.

Dumpy Dooby · 12-10-2006, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Ok...so everyone says it's stealing. I can agree with it to a point. When you walk into any establishment, you have to abide by their rules or they won't serve you. With that said...I don't see this EVER being prosecuted unless he walked off with the item without paying. If anyone else can see it, let me know.

That wasn't part of the question. Again, it's decriminalized, but it's still illegal.

In Ohio, nobody can be arrested on Sunday or the Fourth Of July.

Section 2331.12
General Assembly: 100.
Bill Number: House Bill 1
Effective Date: 10-1-53

No person shall be arrested during a sitting of the senate or house of representatives, within the hall where such session is being held, or in any court of justice, during the sitting of such court, or on Sunday, or on the fourth day of July.

Do you think cops are detained for arresting people on Sundays? Wouldn't you agree that it has been decriminalized? The same type of decriminalization would happen in the instance of someone leaving money and walking out with the item.

7960 · 12-10-2006, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

With that said...I don't see this EVER being prosecuted unless he walked off with the item without paying.

The question wasn't *would* someone be prosecuted for it, the question is *could* somone be prosecuted for it.

The answer is yes. Whether it's trespassing, theft, larceny, burglary...whatever. But if he just left the money and left with the item he broke (a) law.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 12-11-2006, 02:47 AM

It depends on the state's law in question. I'm only familiar with Texas, where this could be classified as theft. Here's the relevant statute:

Penal Code

§ 31.03. THEFT. (a) A person commits an offense if he
unlawfully appropriates property with intent to deprive the owner
of property.
(b) Appropriation of property is unlawful if:
(1) it is without the owner's effective consent;

So, in Texas at least, theft hinges not on whether you pay for the stuff, but whether you have the owner's effective consent to take the stuff. When the owner refused to make the sale, and the shirtless guy forced the sale and took the merchandise anyway, he unlawfully appropriated the property because he didn't have the owner's effective consent. Thus, theft.

motivez · 12-11-2006, 08:42 PM

Interesting. I wonder if there's any states where this wouldn't be a crime based on 'theft' because consent isn't a part of the law?

Kytro · 12-11-2006, 09:36 PM

It would be surprised if consent isn't included in pretty much all theft laws.

Donkey® · 12-11-2006, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by Kytro

It would be surprised if consent isn't included in pretty much all theft laws.

If you put a price tag on something and put it on a shelf that seems like consent is met to me?

Scrum · 12-11-2006, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

If you put a price tag on something and put it on a shelf that seems like consent is met to me?

Consent is when the money exchanges hands, not when there is a price attached to an item to streamline the process.

Kytro · 12-11-2006, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

If you put a price tag on something and put it on a shelf that seems like consent is met to me?

No explicit consent. It is an more of an offer to barter. Until the exchange is completed they retain ownership and hence control of the goods.

You cannot simply pay the price and take ownership if they refuse to transact with you. It require agreement between contracting parties.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 12-11-2006, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

If you put a price tag on something and put it on a shelf that seems like consent is met to me?

Not really. A price tag is more like an offer to sell you something at a certain price, and like any offer, the seller can rescind it before acceptance. Only after he's accepted your offer, by taking your money, do you have his consent to leave with the merchandise. You can't force him to maintain his offer and also accept yours by throwing money at him and leaving.

Dumpy Dooby · 12-12-2006, 02:47 AM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

If you put a price tag on something and put it on a shelf that seems like consent is met to me?

If that's the case, then you'd be wrong in your opinion.

Diamond Cross · 12-12-2006, 05:27 AM

Well, there's one way to find out for sure.

That is to find a place like that, take an item, and leave the money.

The problem is leaving the oney without giving it to anyone is just laying it down for anyone to take, and you really haven't aid for the item.

Phantom · 12-12-2006, 09:54 AM

some places still recognize lucria causa as an element to larceny - the defendant must intend to gain something for a theft charge to stand, otherwise it seems like larceny would be a worst-case outcome for the actor here

Scrum · 12-12-2006, 10:06 AM

I have to run to the store later. I'm thinking about asking the guy there just out of curiosity.

I'm just worried that i'm going to creep him out.

Cops hang out there a lot. Maybe i'll ask one of them.

DosEquis · 12-12-2006, 10:32 AM

It might have been said already, but he did not technically pay for the drink. Leaving money on the counter is not an official transaction. So, technically, he stole it even though he left money there. If he was caught just outside the door there is no way he could prove he bought it.

SpicyMcVoodoo · 12-12-2006, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

Cops hang out there a lot. Maybe i'll ask one of them.

I'm curious to what extent cops know the intricacies of the law.

Scrum · 12-12-2006, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by SpicyMcVoodoo

I'm curious to what extent cops know the intricacies of the law.

I forgot to ask the guy at the store and I didn't see any cops.

dpakman91 · 12-13-2006, 12:11 PM

this is good, i am going to be using the premise and some of the arguments for or against on my show tonight

7960 · 12-13-2006, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by dpakman91

this is good, i am going to be using the premise and some of the arguments for or against on my show tonight

specifically invite lawyers and/or cops to call in

IMO their answers will end up being "of course a law was broken but no shop keeper would bother pursuing it."