Law Question - Hypothetical Situation

motivez · 12-09-2006, 10:22 PM

Hypothetical situation:

Convenience Store has a sign up that reads "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service."

Guy walks into the store with no shirt on, picks up a drink, and takes it to the counter to check out

Store Clerk points to the sign and refuse to sell him the item

Instead of complying with the store policy, he leaves the appropriate amount of money on the counter and walks out with the drink he paid for.

Has a crime been committed? If so, what crime?

Donkey® · 12-09-2006, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

Hypothetical situation:

Convenience Store has a sign up that reads "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service."

Guy walks into the store with no shirt on, picks up a drink, and takes it to the counter to check out

Store Clerk points to the sign and refuse to sell him the item

Instead of complying with the store policy, he leaves the appropriate amount of money on the counter and walks out with the drink he paid for.

Has a crime been committed? If so, what crime?

No law has been broken therefore no crime has been committed.

JaJae · 12-09-2006, 10:38 PM

I think it depends on the state, the police office, prosecutor and the judge.

If they wanted to they could charge you with something for that.

It's like going to a restaurant and the bar tender cutting you off and you take a beer yourself and throw down a few bucks and leave. I'm pretty sure it could actually be a theft as strange as it sounds. He didn't have permission to take it or to buy it. You can't just buy something that doesn't belong to you without permission.

Donkey® · 12-09-2006, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by JaJae

I think it depends on the state, the police office, prosecutor and the judge.

If they wanted to they could charge you with something for that.

It's like going to a restaurant and the bar tender cutting you off and you take a beer yourself and throw down a few bucks and leave.

What law has been broken?

Diesel66 · 12-09-2006, 10:56 PM

only possible thing is trespassing for not abiding by their rules.

Donkey® · 12-09-2006, 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by Diesel66

only possible thing is trespassing for not abiding by their rules.

If he left when he was told to though, that isn't trespassing.

Diesel66 · 12-09-2006, 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

If he left when he was told to though, that isn't trespassing.

hence possible based on the specifics. Just by entering the building like that is going against their rules and might be argued as trespassing.

JaJae · 12-10-2006, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

What law has been broken?

You're not allowed to just throw money at someone and take an item, it can still be considered theft. The seller has some rights. You can't go into the Apple store at the mall drop $2k on the counter and take a laptop off the shelf. They have some rights regarding taking customer name, deciding if they want to sell to you, etc.

You can't walk into a car dealership, drop a $20k msrp on the counter and grab a key and leave in a new car. That's still theft. This issue is just on a smaller scale, the laws/rules are the same. Whether or not someone would get convicted for buying a gallon of milk at a convenient store with no shirt on in this fashion is not very likely. It would just make you a first class asshole and if you come back to the store you could be kicked out and/or charged with tresspassing if you were spoken to on the previous encounter.

Donkey® · 12-10-2006, 12:51 AM

I would LOVE to see anyone show me a link to some precedent of someone getting charged with theft for doing that.

hsmith · 12-10-2006, 04:17 AM

Yes, he has broken contractual law. The store's contract is "you enter the store under these terms"

he didn't abide, thus he has broken the contract and thus is liable.

motivez · 12-10-2006, 11:54 AM

Liable for what exactly, though? If he technically paid for the drink..

Scrum · 12-10-2006, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

Liable for what exactly, though? If he technically paid for the drink..

I could be wrong here, but I don't think you have agreed to sell something until you exchange money for the goods with both people consenting. Just because it has a price on it doesn't mean anyone can just take it and leave money.

It would be like you inviting me into your house and I take your TV and leave money for it.

motivez · 12-10-2006, 01:23 PM

Was the television already for sale at the time as a drink in a convenience store would be?

Scrum · 12-10-2006, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

Was the television already for sale at the time as a drink in a convenience store would be?

I don't think it really matters. If I owned an electronics store and I helped a guy all through the buying process and right before I run his credit card he decided to insult me, I could tell him to go screw himself. He has no recourse. You can slam the door on any sale before the money is exchanged. Taking the item and leaving money is not an exchange.

In the case of the original post, the items are not for sale to people who don't follow the store rules.

JaJae · 12-10-2006, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

I could be wrong here, but I don't think you have agreed to sell something until you exchange money for the goods with both people consenting. Just because it has a price on it doesn't mean anyone can just take it and leave money.

Correct

Dumpy Dooby · 12-10-2006, 03:27 PM

The stores have the right to refuse service to anyone. They don't have to sell someone something just because the person wants it and has money. You can't walk into my house and grab my lamp, leave a few bucks, and then take off with it. This is pretty much the same thing. The store is explicitly saying, "This is not for sale" to the person with no shirt.

Donkey® · 12-10-2006, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby

The stores have the right to refuse service to anyone. They don't have to sell someone something just because the person wants it and has money. You can't walk into my house and grab my lamp, leave a few bucks, and then take off with it. This is pretty much the same thing. The store is explicitly saying, "This is not for sale" to the person with no shirt.

I see a bunch of you saying the same thing yet nobody can point to a LAW.

Dumpy Dooby · 12-10-2006, 03:42 PM

Decriminalization does not preclude legislation. The laws are there, but nobody would be prosecuted for it, so the issue becomes rather irrelevant.

JaJae · 12-10-2006, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

I see a bunch of you saying the same thing yet nobody can point to a LAW.

Theft... taking something that does not belong to you without permission.

EDIT: You can't walk into a Best Buy and grab a tv, leave money on the counter and walk out. There needs to be a legal transaction where both parties consent to the sale. Best Buy is not obligated to sell anything to you just because it's on their shelf. They have the right to refuse a sale for just about any reason (it's being held for someone, they don't want to sell to you because you're not wearing a shirt, etc). And by taking their property without their consent you are stealing it.

Scrum · 12-10-2006, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by Donkey®

I see a bunch of you saying the same thing yet nobody can point to a LAW.

It's larceny. You have no rights to the store item if the seller doesn't allow you to purchase it.