I say "yes." I wholeheartedly believe that the ancients used religion to control the masses. I believe that there was just as much religious corruption back then as there is now. It's possible that there was not necessarily a connection between the two, but given the deception of the ancient ...
12-10-2006, 01:05 AM
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| tyop speicalist Religion Moderator  Capitalist California 
| Did the ancients use religion to control the masses? I say "yes." I wholeheartedly believe that the ancients used religion to control the masses. I believe that there was just as much religious corruption back then as there is now. It's possible that there was not necessarily a connection between the two, but given the deception of the ancient Greek priests, I say it's very probable that other religious societies were involved in politics as well. Note: Feel free to insert a rhetorical "I believe" for statements that I make that are a matter of opinion. The Greeks used religion as a tool to control the masses. They didn't do it in the same sense that it was done by the Romans much later, but they did it nonetheless. Robert Temple tells us, "You couldn't make war or peace, go on a journey, or get married without consulting some kind of oracle." I'll give you a few examples of how the Greek priests would decieve the masses as a means of establishing dominance and thereby helping them control the culture.  This is a picture of the Delphi amphitheater. Delphi was regarded as the center of the universe at the time, and it was presided by Apollo himself. Down there at the bottom is the Temple of Apollo. Governments stored their gold there, and it was considered to be the safest place in Greece.  In there (Temple of Apollo), a sybil (prophetess) would foretell the future. Kings, politicians, and the general public would travel high and low to speak to Apollo's sybil. Cities would rise and fall based on the advice of Apollo's sybil. When the Spartans conquered Athens and wanted to demolish it, the oracle at Delphi said that Apollo demanded that the city be saved, and that's the only reason we can still visit the Acropolis of Athens today. When individuals would first arrive, they would have to pay a fee and write down their questions for the sybil in advance. The people would be put up in the temple for days, and the priests who ran the temple would extract news and gossip from them (much in the same manner that psychics extract information at seminars and whatnot). Two geological fault lines crossed at the temple and the cracked limestone beneath contained petrochemicals which were released from the fault lines. Amongst the chemicals was ethylene (which was used as an anesthetic until the 1960's). It would cause the sybil to enter into pseudo-sedated trancelike state. She would speak nonsensically, and often "in tongues" and it was up to the priests to interpret what she was saying and make sure she was never wrong (For example, Croesus asked the oracle if he should invade Persia. The priests translated the oracle's response as, "If Croesus crossed the Halys, a great empire shall be brought down." After Croesus was defeated by the Persians, the priests protested saying "She never said which empire would fall." According to Wiki, this is one of the most famous oracular statements from Delphi). Finally, the priests ran a network of carrier pigeons so that they would find out information about distant battles and whatnot weeks before anyone else. They would announce their findings as prophecies. A couple weeks later, word would hit town about the event, and the priests were praised for their prophetic accuracy. That's just a small amount of the deceptive tactics that were used. There were also tactics to make people become very suggestable, such as the drugs (which would sometimes kill people) used at the oracle of Trophonios in the Water of Forgetfulness and Water of Memory; the drinks contained henbane, hellebore, thorn apple, belladonna, and opium, all of which are very strong hallucinatory poisons. Another method for making people suggestable was to put them in isolation for days (sensory deprivation) before letting them speak to the oracle. Many oracular sites also had walls that were up to 8ft thick and contained secret passages where priests could move around without being seen. So, what do you think? Obviously, I only talked about the Greeks. I haven't looked into other ancient religions enough to know for sure that they all did this, but it seems as though it's very possible that the Egyptians, Sumerians, Romans, etc. were controlling the masses via religion as well. In case you guys want some further reading, here's info on some of the things I mentioned.
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12-10-2006, 03:57 AM
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| Ron Paul '08  Libertarian Party Queens, NY
| Read The Kybalion It is the fundemental founding of the Christian and Judean religions. The writings in concept; are of a purpose in order to understand the mind of God as [being] the universe itself. Complex and esoteric in it's aforementioned application, but easily found at the pinnacle of specific religious discipline. | ||||
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12-15-2006, 03:18 PM
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| Lurker  Independent Canada's wet coast
| I think religions are based upon the shared world-view of a group of people, and in ancient times politics and religion weren't seen as separate things. In Egyptian religion, for instance, the pharaoh was actually seen as the incarnation of the god on earth. All ancient governments were theocracies. I don't believe the religion was instituted with the purpose of control, but it is an obvious side-effect of having a government that is mainly made up of the priesthood. I suppose it's possible that the people in charge realized it was feeding off the laity's superstition, but for the most part, I think the government believed that to have a successful nation, it needed to take care of its gods. In Roman religion, for instance, it was seen as high treason to refuse to worship the state god. It was akin to saying "I am insulting the state by refusing to worship its gods". Christians weren't being persecuted for being Christian, but for being "atheists", those treasonous people that refused to pay homage to the gods that made Rome great. | ||||
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01-18-2007, 01:49 AM
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| General Asshole Moderate
| As for as the Greeks go. You are confusing potential influence with authority. The oracle at Delphi was not the authority that Moses was or that Ramses was. The oracle was not the leader but council to the leader. And as for as control. What manner of control? The oracle's didn't work with any common agenda or even a consistent one. For the most part, prophecies were directed at the individual level. There prophecies were also not necessarily ones about morality either. | ||||
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03-06-2007, 08:13 AM
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| Lurker  Paleolibertarian Ky
| Did the ancients use religion to control the masses? Actually, religeon is still used to control. No matter the culture, there is a daddy figure to spank you if your bad. But in modern society it's evolved to become a business. And everyone wants to convert you to their belief system so they can have more control. Usually it's control of your money or property. | ||||
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03-06-2007, 04:25 PM
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| Immigrant  Reform Party Gator Country.
| No. Religion was itself the control, no one used it. It is a natural phenomenon. I guess you could argue priests used it, but priests while being highly regarded didn't hold too much political power because they were decentralized until the big centralized churches like christianity. I don't think there was any real political power, it was just the natural tendency of people to want to follow a religion that gives meaning to the world. | ||||
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03-08-2007, 11:13 AM
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| Lurker Paleolibertarian Ky
| Originally Posted by JSmythe I disagree.
If we're speaking ancients as in Aztecs,Mayans, etc. then the High priest (for lack of better term) was seen as a conduit for (insert entity here) and that was the bases of his power. IE "Do as I say because X has told me he commands it" This is effectivly using a persons belief in an entity (religion) to get them do do as you want (control). Another example would be the Egyptians. The Pharohs were thought to either Gods or desended from them. Therefore if the population thought of them as Godlike and worshipped them (religion) and the the Pharohs were the leaders (control) again the point can be made. | ||||
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03-13-2007, 01:05 PM
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| Governments should fear their people  Paleolibertarian
| I think it has been used as a means of control, absolutely. | ||||
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03-13-2007, 05:33 PM
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| tyop speicalist Religion Moderator Capitalist California
| Originally Posted by Grouch Not really. I specifically chose the oracle at Delphi for a reason. Apollo's oracle was pretty much an authoritative figure. I mentioned some examples in my first post.
To emphasize the point a bit, you need to imagine that in its context. Here is a large army that has just defeated their enemy. They are ransacking everything, and destroying the things that their enemies held sacred. Now here's a lowly little oracle telling them not to destroy Apollo's temple, and what do the Spartans do? They leave it alone (for the most part; Delphi was still trashed, but the temple was left in tact)! How's that for "influence"? It's rather obvious that the oracle at Delphi was just as authoritative as Moses.
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03-14-2007, 02:31 AM
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| General Asshole Moderate
| You're still implying authority when none is there. Just influence. For something to have authority there must be punishment for not following commands. Nothing like that existed within the Greek oracle system. All oracles really say is "if you do/don't do X, Y will/will not happen". Oracles generally don't make commands. You're example "of If Croesus crossed the Halys, a great empire shall be brought down" is an example of an oracle prophecy which has nothing to do with controlling anyone, or making a command it is just a statement of what will happen if an action takes place. You're proof of the oracles authority also relies on just a single example. | ||||
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03-14-2007, 02:01 PM
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| tyop speicalist Religion Moderator Capitalist California
| Originally Posted by Grouch What about when they said there would be consequences from the gods if you don't do X? I really find it hard to believe that there wasn't a bit of coercion from the priests. It's just the way that they operated - in secrecy - and the things that they did. People would often die during the religious trials by the priests. In order to speak to many of the oracles, people would have to take so many drugs, and there were so many tactics that would have been torturous by today's standards. I used the oracle of Trophonios as one example of where people would die trying to get inside. These weren't just little small-talk instances where they oracle was saying "I think maybe you should do X, okay?"
If I recall correctly, Trophonios only had one written account by someone that actually went through it (I don't recall who it was, though; I'd have to look it up). The people were so terrified of what might happen to them if they told anyone about what happened. Most of the written accounts aren't first-hand experiences, but rather stories about the place that were told anonymously to ancient historians. The ancients would curse others to "go to Trophonios's temple" which would have been a more explicit way of saying "go to Hell," but better compared to "I hope you suffer ... a LOT!" So why did people go? They elected to go because the oracle was thought of being so prophetically accurate. It may have all been an opt-in process, but you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that the Greeks, at least, didn't use oracular "wisdom" to establish dominance over the masses. | ||||
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03-14-2007, 02:23 PM
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| I wonder Independent San Antonio, Texas
| Control yes what would you do if you wanted a society so things would be easier for everybody and you had really ignorant half savage people. The vast majority were the poor with no education and they knew very little about the world. They must have been very fearful of the world, and even the roman world was much more savage than now. If you could control these people with religion to build you a safe comfortable society wouldn't you if you were a leader and probably smarter than the average barbarian. | ||||
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03-14-2007, 02:53 PM
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| tyop speicalist Religion Moderator Capitalist California
| Originally Posted by Rouger2 The leaders were just as barbaric. How do you think those empires rose and fell? They certainly didn't say, "Umm, excuse me, may I please purchase this land from you?"
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03-14-2007, 02:56 PM
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| General Asshole Moderate
| Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby
I’m sure that did happen, but I don’t believe and I have seen no evidence that replies like that were the general nature of the oracle. Another note about Sparta not destroying the Acropolis, Religious areas like these we seen as sanctuaries from violence and war. Destroying one would already be a hugely sacrilegious act. Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby
What do the priests have to gain by telling someone that marrying X would be good Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby
Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby
None of that has anything to do with controlling the masses or even individual people. That is just more about the price of admission Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby
Again I’m failing to see what this has to do with control. Originally Posted by Dumpy Dooby
Now it seems like your definition of a controlling religion has changed. It’s no longer like Christianity where your religion says that sex before marriage is bad or fucking a dude sends you to hell, where the religion has absolute control over mortality. But now because the Greeks most of the time took the suggestions of an oracle that sometimes allowed them to gain secular political power; that religion was the general dominate controlling device. | ||||
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03-15-2007, 12:26 PM
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| Lurker Independent Canada's wet coast
| Suggesting that priests used religion to control the masses implies that the priests didn't actually believe in the rituals and religious behaviour, etc. that they were advocating. I tend to think that the priests were probably the most superstitious of all, and the people, for the most part, went along with what they said. | ||||
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03-15-2007, 12:49 PM
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| no es mi culpa  Independent Beantown
| I think maybe mainstream religion has tendencies to control the masses, but the basis of all religion, going back to Shamanism, was a way to be in tune with the world. REAL religion, spirituality or whatever you want to call it, is more about an inner peace than money, control or domination. It was about understanding how the world worked before science came into play. It was about asking how humans fit into the world and what our purpose was. I live by a simple rule of Karma. The whole heaven/hell dichotomy was always a bit too unrealistic for me, and I was raised Catholic. I'm not going to go and no covet my neighbor's wife because it's a sin. I'm not going to do it because it's WRONG. Although there are plenty of simple minds out there that are easily influenced so I can see the allure most leaders easily must have seen. Take Constantine for instance. He converted the whole empire to Christianity (for controlling purposes), but it was said by many sources he actually secretly remained pagan throughout his life only becoming baptized on his death bed.
__________________ There is small disproportion betwixt a fool who useth not wit because he hath it not and him that useth it not when it should avail him. | ||||
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03-15-2007, 06:47 PM
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| General Asshole Moderate
| Originally Posted by Linzyhop Constantine did no such thing.
And sources do not claim that he secretly remained a pagan. Sources do disagree on whether he became a Christian as a young child after being introduced to it by his mother or if it was a slow conversion over time. And he did not convert on his death bed. | ||||
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03-15-2007, 10:08 PM
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| no es mi culpa Independent Beantown
| Originally Posted by Grouch actually it is fact he converted on his death bed. some say that was a late baptism in that age, which was normal not to do it until death, but it is a fact he was baptized on his death bed. as far as the "sources" go, some may say what you claim, but some also say what i claim, which is why I said "many sources".
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