Dems Plans for AFTER the war? - Page 3

motivez · 08-01-2006, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

I'm all for a booming economy and a healthy environment, I just want both to be achieved simultaneously instead of sacrificing one for the other.

The free market is not benevolent when it comes to the enviornment if it gets in the way of profit margins, history has shown over and over again that companies are willing to fuck over the enviornment and even their potential customers to avoid enviornmental regulations they don't like.

I can't imagine what it'd be like without them.

Ardentfrost · 08-01-2006, 08:53 PM

I've seen nothing that says "Democrats say they'll end all Iraqi deployment in X years"

Having a plan is one thing... I mean, the republicans have a plan. Just that the bottom of the plan is "troop removal."

Thorgrim · 08-01-2006, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

I've seen nothing that says "Democrats say they'll end all Iraqi deployment in X years"

Having a plan is one thing... I mean, the republicans have a plan. Just that the bottom of the plan is "troop removal."

Democrats are not in power in any part of the federal government, why should we make a plan when all the best intelligence and power is held by the GOP?

Ardentfrost · 08-01-2006, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

The free market is not benevolent when it comes to the enviornment if it gets in the way of profit margins, history has shown over and over again that companies are willing to fuck over the enviornment and even their potential customers to avoid enviornmental regulations they don't like.

I can't imagine what it'd be like without them.

Our purchasing practices affect industries more than regulations ever could hope to. Not that I think it should be free-for-all and let the chips fall as they may, but at this point in history, we can move in a coorperative direction instead of a competitive direction (talking about economy and environment)

Ardentfrost · 08-01-2006, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

Democrats are not in power in any part of the federal government, why should we make a plan when all the best intelligence and power is held by the GOP?

Good point, I guess it's hard to do it without information

ballz2wallz · 08-01-2006, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by TheMrs

Yes, that's a good one and I agree that we must now clean up the mess we've made.. but honestly. Do you see the withdrawal of U.S. forces any time in the very near future? I sure as hell don't.

I live near Fort Leavenworth in Kansas. Many soldiers there are getting ready to be deployed AGAIN to Iraq. I know this, because a few of the women (mothers of some of these boys and a few wives whom I've worked with) I know (neighbors and co-workers who I've been in contact with all summer) have just recently been talking about them having to go back.

Now. I understand that we've a job to do, believe me... I come from a military family, I know about finishing the job. But the all too commonly used "Stay the course" is a load of bullshit. Stay what course, exactly? No, I don't expect the Feds to make us privy to their top secret timelines.. but goddamnit.. give us a little more than "stay the course".. that's the biggest cop out I've ever heard and they've been saying it for *how* long now?

A plan doesn't consist of:

1. You run over there
2. I'll run over here
3. We both jump on him and kick him in the shins
4. Stay the course
5. Just keep staying the course
6. Hang on.. we're almost there.. stay that course!
7. Yes, our plan is to...... stay the course
8. Yes the stay the course plan is coming together nicely....

well, i think the plan is 'leave when it's stabilized'

i heard something earlier today or yesterday. it was an interesting thought. basically it's that America is terrible at going to war. we're not good at it, because it happens somewhat rarely. what we're good at though is jumping in full-force when we do decide to go...we're good at making mistakes at the beginning, but we're also good at recognizing those mistakes, changing our tactics, and eventually pulling it off. i think it's going ot take time, but we'll be out of iraq one day. but i really do think we need ot make sure it's stable over there before we do. slowly but surely iraq is becoming it's own stable country. i have faith it will happen. but it's hard to give specifics when we don't know exactly how long it will take.

motivez · 08-01-2006, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

I've seen nothing that says "Democrats say they'll end all Iraqi deployment in X years"

Having a plan is one thing... I mean, the republicans have a plan. Just that the bottom of the plan is "troop removal."

Read some of Murtha's writings and thoughts on the issue. I'm sure if Democrats regain control of Congress his thoughts will be very powerful when it comes to policy on that.

ballz2wallz · 08-01-2006, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

Good point, I guess it's hard to do it without information

congressmen know what's going on. and many of them are democrats.

motivez · 08-01-2006, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

well, i think the plan is 'leave when it's stabilized'

i heard something earlier today or yesterday. it was an interesting thought. basically it's that America is terrible at going to war. we're not good at it, because it happens somewhat rarely. what we're good at though is jumping in full-force when we do decide to go...we're good at making mistakes at the beginning, but we're also good at recognizing those mistakes, changing our tactics, and eventually pulling it off. i think it's going ot take time, but we'll be out of iraq one day. but i really do think we need ot make sure it's stable over there before we do. slowly but surely iraq is becoming it's own stable country. i have faith it will happen. but it's hard to give specifics when we don't know exactly how long it will take.

The problem is 'leave when it's stabilized' isn't a plan to bring about that stability. Staying on the course we're on now has proven to lead to instability.. and civil war.

Ardentfrost · 08-01-2006, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

congressmen know what's going on. and many of them are democrats.

Are they allowed to share information with democrats that aren't in congress that are hoping to pick up some contested seats? Seems kinda unfair that the incumbant can say "my opponent has no plan for Iraq like I do" when the opponent has no information

ballz2wallz · 08-01-2006, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

The problem is 'leave when it's stabilized' isn't a plan to bring about that stability. Staying on the course we're on now has proven to lead to instability.. and civil war.

unfortunately we're there to provide stability only. we're there to aid the iraqi government with protection and stability as they grow and slowly take over that control. that's it, tha'ts the plan. what more do you want?

Thorgrim · 08-01-2006, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

Good point, I guess it's hard to do it without information

Dems were withheld from knowing all the cherrypicking Bush was doing on WMDs and after-war plans

Dems would look quite stupid if they wanted a pullout in October and in November the President and GOP leaders set up a peace deal with insurgents

You can't ask them to make plans when they are kept out of the loop on top secret info

Thorgrim · 08-01-2006, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

congressmen know what's going on. and many of them are democrats.

actually its a handful, and those have said they were kept out of top administration activities, even knowing what the administration was doing

ballz2wallz · 08-02-2006, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by motivez

The problem is 'leave when it's stabilized' isn't a plan to bring about that stability. Staying on the course we're on now has proven to lead to instability.. and civil war.

perhaps this might better explain the plan?

Talabani: Iraq to take over security by end '06

BAGHDAD, Iraq - President Jalal Talabani said Wednesday that Iraqi forces will take over security of all provinces in the country by the end of the year. U.S. forces currently are responsible for the security of 17 of Iraq’s 18 provinces.

hopefully, if this is successful, this will result in a stabilized iraq under the iraqi government, and we can start bringing our troops home. that seems like a good plan to me

considering this is full of so many unknowns, it's hard to say anything definite. that's one thing you can't expect in the 'plan'.

motivez · 08-02-2006, 06:21 PM

With the sharp increase in violence, I have serious doubts that this will actually happen.

ballz2wallz · 08-02-2006, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by motivez

With the sharp increase in violence, I have serious doubts that this will actually happen.

i have doubts too, but we can only hope