neighbor, land, easement question

[7960]

So, my neighbor's wife died and he's going to move. The way our land is, he owns about 10 acres behind my house. He wants to subdivide the land and sell off the lots and then sell his house and move.

It's a long story involving a variance, prime wetlands, etc, but the important part of the story is that the only way he could get a road back there is to cut it through my property. So a few weeks ago he throws out "How about if I buy some land from you?" to see if I'd be open to it. I talked with a few friends who do development and they all thought it would be a fair trade if, instead of him buying the land, we traded and gave me one lot and I'd give him the land. That's about $150k in my town right now. We talked yesterday...he offered $15k .

I said "how about we trade one lot for the land and that way you don't have to front a bunch of money?" He was *really* about that idea but didn't say no. Later he complained that developing the land is going to cost more than he may want to spend so I offered to just buy the land outright. Again he was but I know he doesn't have the money to develop the land on his own.

I guess my rambling comes to this...if he sells his land the way it is (house on 2 acres + 10 undeveloped acres out back) then he's probably going to get $450k for it. I said "why not cut off your two acres and sell me the other 10?" and he's balking...I don't get it. Cutting off that 10 acres would reduce his house sale from $450k to maybe $400k, but I'd be giving him a *shitload* more for the undeveloped land. We both know he doesn't have the money to develop it...why not sell it for the guaranteed no-headache check?? If I buy it he's going to get probably 75% of what he'd get if he did it himself, *BUT* then we come back to this depending on my allowing a a road through my land.

I just don't get it. If you had the option to (these aren't real numbers)

- make $100k by doing something yourself but you'd have to front about $20k you don't have, or
- make $75k by selling this land, or
- keeping it together and selling it as a block with rights to develop if it's ever subdivided

....remembering this all hinges on getting a road through my property, what would you do?

Oh, and factor in I already told him (before he mentioned any of this buying-land thing) that I want to move my driveway pretty much where he wants the road. I think that's what gave him the idea to ask about the road in the first place. So he knows once my driveway goes in this road is NOT going to happen...if he doesn't (a) sell me the land or (b) give me a lot, nobody will ever going to get back there.

[WickedLou9]

You know what would be REALLY awesome? If you could "discover" some endangered species of woodland thrush or ground burrowing fluff monkey, right in the middle of those 10 acres. Saweet. You wont sell the land huh chief? Hey.. inst that the federally protected ground burrowing fluff monkey? Right there! I saw it! Oh you can't develop this land, it;s a protected habitat!

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by 7960

So, my neighbor's wife died and he's going to move. The way our land is, he owns about 10 acres behind my house. He wants to subdivide the land and sell off the lots and then sell his house and move.

It's a long story involving a variance, prime wetlands, etc, but the important part of the story is that the only way he could get a road back there is to cut it through my property. So a few weeks ago he throws out "How about if I buy some land from you?" to see if I'd be open to it. I talked with a few friends who do development and they all thought it would be a fair trade if, instead of him buying the land, we traded and gave me one lot and I'd give him the land. That's about $150k in my town right now. We talked yesterday...he offered $15k .

I said "how about we trade one lot for the land and that way you don't have to front a bunch of money?" He was *really* about that idea but didn't say no. Later he complained that developing the land is going to cost more than he may want to spend so I offered to just buy the land outright. Again he was but I know he doesn't have the money to develop the land on his own.

I guess my rambling comes to this...if he sells his land the way it is (house on 2 acres + 10 undeveloped acres out back) then he's probably going to get $450k for it. I said "why not cut off your two acres and sell me the other 10?" and he's balking...I don't get it. Cutting off that 10 acres would reduce his house sale from $450k to maybe $400k, but I'd be giving him a *shitload* more for the undeveloped land. We both know he doesn't have the money to develop it...why not sell it for the guaranteed no-headache check?? If I buy it he's going to get probably 75% of what he'd get if he did it himself, *BUT* then we come back to this depending on my allowing a a road through my land.

I just don't get it. If you had the option to (these aren't real numbers)

- make $100k by doing something yourself but you'd have to front about $20k you don't have, or
- make $75k by selling this land, or
- keeping it together and selling it as a block with rights to develop if it's ever subdivided

....remembering this all hinges on getting a road through my property, what would you do?

Oh, and factor in I already told him (before he mentioned any of this buying-land thing) that I want to move my driveway pretty much where he wants the road. I think that's what gave him the idea to ask about the road in the first place. So he knows once my driveway goes in this road is NOT going to happen...if he doesn't (a) sell me the land or (b) give me a lot, nobody will ever going to get back there.

He apparently doesn't like you. I have NO idea why.

In my opinion, wait him out. If he sells it...talk to the people he sells it to. If he doesn't, he'll come back your way and maybe you could get more for less. Who knows.

[7960]

My new driveway is going in this spring.
His land is surrounded by wetlands so he can't get to it any other way.
Once my driveway goes in there's very little chance I'll do a land swap.
He's got about 6 months to:
-give me one lot
-sell me all the land
-watch 10 acres basically go worthless.

Btw, after we had that conversation he came over for dinner...we're friends, this is business.

[imind]

His land is surrounded by wetlands so he can't get to it any other way.

causeway driveway, ftw. don't worry, my lips are sealed.

is he an intelligent man? hey, some people just aren't. is he older? maybe you should put it in writing and have him consult an attorney to give him assurance its a 'fair' deal.

[7960]

Originally Posted by imind

causeway driveway, ftw. don't worry, my lips are sealed.

A 200' bridge?

It'd be cheaper for him to buy my house and tear it down to make the road/driveway.

is he an intelligent man? hey, some people just aren't. is he older? maybe you should put it in writing and have him consult an attorney to give him assurance its a 'fair' deal.

Yes, he's intelligent, but like many people I think he's got a case of "I know what it's *should* be worth and won't consider anything less"-itis. Happens all the time...people go to sell a house and put too much value on it and get insulted when someone offers less. Heck, I almost didn't buy my house because the lady was arguing over a porch swing!! The realtor ended up taking cash from her pocket and paying for it and then we signed.

His choices... sell to me or give me a lot or it's worthless. I just don't get it.

[avsp]

How does he see your choices?

Perhaps they appear 'odd' to him, ..., especially as you seem happy to put your drive in, do no deal at all with him thus not only preventing him from making money but also there'll be no 'cut' for you ..., plus you will actually have the cost of putting the drive in getting only a minimal rise in your property value

I suppose theres a potential property value assest in your house being 'relatively isolated'

[7960]

Originally Posted by avsp

How does he see your choices?

I'm not sure if he does see the choices from my side. IMO he's seeing "a lot in town is going for about $175k and I'm offering less." But then again, he won't have to front a shitload of money and wait 2 years for a return, he won't have to deal with the town, lawyers, developers, excavation, etc, and he'd be able to sell his house and leave without having to come back and deal with all this shit. He's said a bunch of times he wants to move north to a lake...if he subdivides his house off from the land and sells it and sells the rest of the land to me he'd have enough to buy that place at the lake right now. If he does it himself he'd end up with an "extra" $75k but it would take years and the place that's for sale now may not be by then.

Perhaps they appear 'odd' to him, ..., especially as you seem happy to put your drive in, do no deal at all with him thus not only preventing him from making money but also there'll be no 'cut' for you ..., plus you will actually have the cost of putting the drive in getting only a minimal rise in your property value

Before he talked with me about buying my land I had already talked with him about moving my driveway. He does landscaping and I'd asked him about helping me figure out how to make my driveway look good over there (I'd pay him, of course).

I suppose theres a potential property value assest in your house being 'relatively isolated'

If I sell him that part of my land I'd 'lose' some of it so there'd be a de-value to me. Other than that, the nearest new house out back would be over 200' away so it wouldn't really affect my property value much (I believe).

[avsp]

It still seems to me that he may think you're 'bargaining' with the threat of no one getting anything, ..., especially as you've set an end date with your drive installation etc.

He may see this as a 'weak' position or he may see it as 'bullying' one depending upon how he views your resolution/credibility. But this isnt news to you is it?

Personally I think the one-lot/access swap deal is a fair one.

Also property values are tiny in your area, £230,000 for a house & 12 acres with planning permission for 10 new homes? You'd struggle to get a rather nasty 3 bedroom semi with a 1/4 acre garden for £120,000 in the slightly grottier parts of Brum
http://www.findaproperty.com/searchr...rent=0&al=5114

Houise prices are so mad that the eldsters are selling up & moving abroad to live in style. All the main TV channels have at least one series giving advice on this.

[JaJae]

The ball is in your court. Once he sells you could always work with the new landlord. You're not out anything either way. Wait him out, if he wants to make some money he knows who to talk to.

[7960]

Originally Posted by avsp

Also property values are tiny in your area, £230,000 for a house & 12 acres with planning permission for 10 new homes?

The way the land works out there could be no more than 3 houses there. Wetlands and the physical geography mean there would probably be 3 lots, sized 5 acres, 3 acres and probably 1.5 acres. All would include at least some "wetlands" as defined by the town (but that does not mean they'd actually be "wet").

His house/property are valued at $450k but he could cut off that back 8-10 acres and his house would probably only drop the $400k, but then he'd be able to sell the lots for $150k each....... if he can get through my land to get there

[7960]

Originally Posted by JaJae

The ball is in your court. Once he sells you could always work with the new landlord. You're not out anything either way. Wait him out, if he wants to make some money he knows who to talk to.

My neighbor and I are on good terms...he told me to talk to people to figure out what I need to know.

My dad was just here and we walked around the land out back. While we were out there my neighbor came home and a buddy of his was right behind him. He had said he was going to get a surveyor to come give an opinion on how many lots are there and if the town would go for the plan (he's worked with the town often on projects like this).

Neighbor knows my dad is interested in at least one of the lots and he was coming home just as we were walking back across the field. This is going to get interesting in the next few weeks

[avsp]

Which way is the market moving? Has the housing bubble burst yet? If not what will it be like in 6 months at the deadline you've set?

By setting this deadline you may have set up the situation for it to go the distance, brinkmanship etc, which is why he is waiting himself.

But then you surely know this which is why you've done it.

OTOH by showing him the weakness of his position so forcefully factors other than 'market sense' may be influencing his behaviour

[7960]

Originally Posted by avsp

Which way is the market moving? Has the housing bubble burst yet? If not what will it be like in 6 months at the deadline you've set?

A lot in town peaked about about $210k a year ago. It's dipped to about $150k and has held there since. Of course nobody knows, but I'm guessing (since nobody is making more land) that the price for a house lot won't go down.

By setting this deadline you may have set up the situation for it to go the distance, brinkmanship etc, which is why he is waiting himself.

But then you surely know this which is why you've done it.

Not really. My deadline comes from wanting to rip my barn down and build a 2-car garage. When I do that the driveway is moving....all that was set before the neighbor brought up this. I actually pushed my driveway plans off a bit to accomodate us figuring out the neighbor and I are going to do.

OTOH by showing him the weakness of his position so forcefully factors other than 'market sense' may be influencing his behaviour

We're friends (friendly...whatever). We both bought a fence to put up on part of our property line, we both bought fill and soil to re-do part of a field that our property line cuts through...we've worked together before but obviously not on this scale.

I haven't told him this but I'm giving him a month to come talk to me. If he doesn' then I'll go find him and talk. If we can't work it out then I'm going to start scheduling all the shit that has to happen to tear down the barn and move the driveway. I want my garage.

[7960]

Originally Posted by 7960

My new driveway is going in this spring.

I was approximately 7 months off in my prediction, but the project is moving forward.

first part of the new driveway...the old driveway is below that picture. I'm moving it about 70' further down the road.


back part of the new driveway. This is where it turns left to enter what's going to be a 2-car under garage. The barn you can see on the left is coming down. The new garage is going to extend 12' farther one direction and 8' farther in the other.


Asshole neighbor ON THE OTHER SIDE of my house. This is not the guy with the land I mentioned in the first post. This is the asshole on the other side who keeps coming on my yard to tell the contractors what to do.


I told the contractor to get rid of him. Today he used a bulldozer to chase him off my land while I sat on my porch and laughed my motherfuckin ass off

[avsp]

Its either a very small barn or a 'king huge garage

Do you suppose that theres a board somewhere with posts & pics by your neighbour about your workings/contractors etc?

Either way good to see you back

[7960]

Originally Posted by avsp

Its either a very small barn or a 'king huge garage

The new addition is going to be 40' x 26'. The basement will be the garage...all 40' x 26' will be open (no walls, at most one post/column in the center). Upstairs will be two rooms, one great room 24' x 26' and one sitting area approx 14' x 26'.

Do you suppose that theres a board somewhere with posts & pics by your neighbour about your workings/contractors etc?

I doubt he can use a computer.

So far they've cut the barn off the house. It comes down monday. They also scraped a bunch of loom and dug stumps from the trees that we had taken down. More than once he's come over to tell the bulldozer guy something. I'm more than 50' from the property line so there's no possible way I could be affecting his land. The bulldozer guy doesn't even slow down when he sees the guy coming

[motivez]

So he sold you a lot, or what happened with that?

[7960]

Originally Posted by motivez

So he sold you a lot, or what happened with that?

Nope. He kept his land and I put my driveway where I originally planned.