Do you think the FBI, CIA, and NSA are unconstitutional?

[Ardentfrost]

I like how some of us are "I'd rather have 100 guilty men free than one innocent man imprisoned" and others are the exact opposite.

[lew]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

I like how some of us are "I'd rather have 100 guilty men free than one innocent man imprisoned" and others are the exact opposite.

[RMNIXON]

Here is a major foundation of our intelligence law:


National Security Act of 1947 (UNCLASSIFIED)

[Diamond Cross]

Anything that is not listed in the Constitution is unconstitutional and shouldn't exist.

Period.

Doesn't mean that they don't exist, that they shouldn't.

But no one really cares about the Constitutiona anymore anyway.

[lew]

Originally Posted by Diamond Cross

Anything that is not listed in the Constitution is unconstitutional and shouldn't exist.

Period.

Doesn't mean that they don't exist, that they shouldn't.

But no one really cares about the Constitutiona anymore anyway.

That frightens me and it should frighten everyone else.

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

Taxes I won't argue in this thread since there is technically an amendment.

However, please show me the amendment where it allows the formation of the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc...

Constitution gave power to Congress to make federal buildings and land, protect the currency, stop pirates, etc.... There needs to be a police force to enforce those laws on federal land. That is the FBI, US Marshalls, and the Secret Service.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by lew

That frightens me and it should frighten everyone else.

I disagree. This document is supposed to be the framework for our government. For it to remain stagnant and unchanged and have NO review just makes no sense. Sure there are ways to get that done...but even you know (16th amendment) that doing that isn't the best way either. To say it shouldn't be edited or changed as the centuries go buy is kind of ridiculous.

You also didn't address what I said above. I'll repost.

"One thing I WILL give you though: I think the FBI has no business investigating all the shit that it does. The problem isn't with the existance of the FBI and whether that is Constitutional...the problem is the fact that so many things are being deemed federal crimes...enabling the FBI to become a national police force."


Basically, ENABLING the FBI is what makes them what they are...not the fact that they exist.

[Ardentfrost]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

Constitution gave power to Congress to make federal buildings and land, protect the currency, stop pirates, etc.... There needs to be a police force to enforce those laws on federal land. That is the FBI, US Marshalls, and the Secret Service.

Please show me where Congress is allowed to make federal buildings and land?

They stop pirates with their Navy.

They protect currency with their Army or, what's more likely, state officials from where the law breaking is occuring.

Their land is SPECIFICALLY limited to the District of Columbia (which even says is limited to 10 square miles).

[lew]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

"One thing I WILL give you though: I think the FBI has no business investigating all the shit that it does. The problem isn't with the existance of the FBI and whether that is Constitutional...the problem is the fact that so many things are being deemed federal crimes...enabling the FBI to become a national police force."


Basically, ENABLING the FBI is what makes them what they are...not the fact that they exist.

Originally Posted by me

You know what I mean. Yes, there are three specific federal crimes. But what the feds do now in regards to crime is just a wee bit more than three crimes. And DC is the only exception, being that it is again, in the Constitution.


If the FBI were limited to only these three types of cases, then it could be argued that it is a constitutional agency. But again, they don't.

Originally Posted by me

Federal police of themselves in the examples you have given can be constitutional. Unfortunately, in most cases, these agencies engage into activities that cannot be argued constitutional.

.

[Diamond Cross]

What does the Supreme Court has to say?

Here's a list of cases wit the FBI:

Alphabetical

Essentialy if the Supreme Court says it's constitutional, then the point is done and irrelevant.

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

Please show me where Congress is allowed to make federal buildings and land?

article 1 section 8.

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;

And the part about the post office and the part about federal courts.

They stop pirates with their Navy.

They protect currency with their Army or, what's more likely, state officials from where the law breaking is occuring.

Secret Service protects the currency not the Army.

[kinggovernor]

has anyone mentioned the elastic clause yet?

[Ardentfrost]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

article 1 section 8.

Except it's talking about land needed for the Navy and Army, for which they are responsible.

And I don't mind the secret service really... I'd even say that they're needed, and was the FIRST federal police force (started at the time of Andrew Jackson I'm pretty sure). I did think the FBI took counterfeiting cases, but I guess it would make more since that SS does it being as they've been around a good while longer.

The FBI and CIA and shit, however, are a different story.

[Donkey®]

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

has anyone mentioned the elastic clause yet?

Yes

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

Except it's talking about land needed for the Navy and Army, for which they are responsible.

and the post office, US mint, US federal courts, etc.....

And I don't mind the secret service really... I'd even say that they're needed, and was the FIRST federal police force (started at the time of Andrew Jackson I'm pretty sure). I did think the FBI took counterfeiting cases, but I guess it would make more since that SS does it being as they've been around a good while longer.

The FBI and CIA and shit, however, are a different story.

Secret service is in charge of currency, that is why they were created. The job protecting the Pres and other dignitaries was only added later. US Marshalls protect the judges, criminals and are the police force in US territories (Indian reservations are basically their only specific jurisdiction now.)

[Diamond Cross]

Who protects the Supreme court?

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

has anyone mentioned the elastic clause yet?

quit thinking, that doesn't belong here.

[Ardentfrost]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

and the post office, US mint, US federal courts, etc.....Secret service is in charge of currency, that is why they were created. The job protecting the Pres and other dignitaries was only added later. US Marshalls protect the judges, criminals and are the police force in US territories (Indian reservations are basically their only specific jurisdiction now.)

Everything that you said STILL doesn't give a place for FBI, CIA, NSA

All the examples you've given have SPECIFIC jurisdiction, whereas FBI (for instance) has ultimate jurisdiction

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by Diamond Cross

Who protects the Supreme court?

US Marshalls.

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

Everything that you said STILL doesn't give a place for FBI, CIA, NSA

All the examples you've given have SPECIFIC jurisdiction, whereas FBI (for instance) has ultimate jurisdiction

??????

FBI has ultimate jurisdiction on only a few crimes (bank robbery, kidnapping). Most of their work is on federal land or multiple state crimes where the local cops do not have the ability to follow the criminal across state lines.

Break into a post office and it is the feds that have jurisdiction not the local cops. Commit a crime in a National park and the feds arrest you.




CIA and NSA are just extensions of the military. If you view the more active military movement as unconstititutional then no wonder you dont support those agencies in general.

[kinggovernor]

I think we make be talking less about the FBI and more about the US Attorney's Office, aka federal prosecutors.


§ 547. Duties

Except as otherwise provided by law, each United States attorney, within his district, shall—
(1) prosecute for all offenses against the United States;
(2) prosecute or defend, for the Government, all civil actions, suits or proceedings in which the United States is concerned;
(3) appear in behalf of the defendants in all civil actions, suits or proceedings pending in his district against collectors, or other officers of the revenue or customs for any act done by them or for the recovery of any money exacted by or paid to these officers, and by them paid into the Treasury;
(4) institute and prosecute proceedings for the collection of fines, penalties, and forfeitures incurred for violation of any revenue law, unless satisfied on investigation that justice does not require the proceedings; and
(5) make such reports as the Attorney General may direct.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht...7----000-.html

United States Attorneys Mission Statement
The United States Attorneys serve as the nation's principal litigators under the direction of the Attorney General. There are 93 United States Attorneys stationed throughout the United States, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, Guam, and the Northern Mariana Islands. United States Attorneys are appointed by, and serve at the discretion of, the President of the United States, with advice and consent of the United States Senate. One United States Attorney is assigned to each of the judicial districts, with the exception of Guam and the Northern Mariana Islands where a single United States Attorney serves in both districts. Each United States Attorney is the chief federal law enforcement officer of the United States within his or her particular jurisdiction.

United States Attorneys conduct most of the trial work in which the United States is a party. The United States Attorneys have three statutory responsibilities under Title 28, Section 547 of the United States Code:

the prosecution of criminal cases brought by the Federal government;
the prosecution and defense of civil cases in which the United States is a party; and
the collection of debts owed the Federal government which are administratively uncollectible.
Although the distribution of caseload varies between districts, each has every category of cases and handles a mixture of simple and complex litigation. Each United States Attorney exercises wide discretion in the use of his/her resources to further the priorities of the local jurisdictions and needs of their communities. United States Attorneys have been delegated full authority and control in the areas of personnel management, financial management, and procurement.