Do you think the FBI, CIA, and NSA are unconstitutional?

[lew]

All three of these organizations are basically the federal government's police force, none of which are authorized by the Constitution. The Constitution reserves police power to the states - federal police are unconstitutional.

[Ardentfrost]

I agree and I think I even mentioned it in the recent thread that asked what we would do as president. I said I'd get rid of those agencies (I mentioned others too).

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by Ardentfrost

I agree and I think I even mentioned it in the recent thread that asked what we would do as president. I said I'd get rid of those agencies (I mentioned others too).

No you wouldn't. You'd be impeached in a matter of minutes when the country realized you had absolutely no clue what was happening around the world.

[Diesel66]

There needs to be a federal police force of some type to handle the federal land, the few federal crimes and handle criminals that cross state boundries.


CIA/NSA are a different matter though. Depends on how strict you read the constitution.

[Scrum]

Could the states get together collectivly and make agencies like this and have it still be constitutional?

[lew]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

No you wouldn't. You'd be impeached in a matter of minutes when the country realized you had absolutely no clue what was happening around the world.

So constitutionality shouldn't be a requirement for the federal government? The government should just do whatever it "feels" it should do?

[lew]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

There needs to be a federal police force of some type to handle the federal land, the few federal crimes and handle criminals that cross state boundries.


CIA/NSA are a different matter though. Depends on how strict you read the constitution.

But that's the point. "Federal crimes" are themselves unconstitutional. And so is "federal land." For the criminals that cross state boundaries, it just requires states to work together - something they already do.

[lew]

Originally Posted by Scrumtralecent

Could the states get together collectivly and make agencies like this and have it still be constitutional?

Possibly. But there isn't really a need for this. Not a real need anyway.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by lew

So constitutionality shouldn't be a requirement for the federal government? The government should just do whatever it "feels" it should do?

Just another example of how the Constitution isn't really the Bible some people make it out to be. It's a wonderful document, no doubt about it, but it's not the end-all be-all.

[lew]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

Just another example of how the Constitution isn't really the Bible some people make it out to be. It's a wonderful document, no doubt about it, but it's not the end-all be-all.

Actually, it legally is the end all be all. That doesn't mean it can't be changed. If you want a federal police, fine, add it into the Constitution. But don't break the supreme law of the land by claiming it's "needed."

[Donkey®]

Jesus Christ...what IS allowed by your Constitutional Interpretations?

They are obviously Constitutional since nobody has the ability to show they are not. They are obviously Constitutional since the evidence they present in court cases is not immediately thrown out because that agency shouldn't exist.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by lew

Actually, it legally is the end all be all. That doesn't mean it can't be changed. If you want a federal police, fine, add it into the Constitution. But don't break the supreme law of the land by claiming it's "needed."

It seems the constitutional requirement for the president to protect this country would allow for such programs, wouldn't it?

[lew]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Jesus Christ...what IS allowed by your Constitutional Interpretations?

Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;

To establish post offices and post roads;

To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;

To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;

To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.

[lew]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

It seems the constitutional requirement for the president to protect this country would allow for such programs, wouldn't it?

No. Because our Presidents protected this country fine for a century before te FBI was created. And if Presidents can enact whatever they want in the name of the protection of our country, that would give them unlimited power.

[lew]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Jesus Christ...what IS allowed by your Constitutional Interpretations?

.

Section 2. The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States; he may require the opinion, in writing, of the principal officer in each of the executive departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices, and he shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment.

He shall have power, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, to make treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, shall appoint ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, judges of the Supreme Court, and all other officers of the United States, whose appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by law: but the Congress may by law vest the appointment of such inferior officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the courts of law, or in the heads of departments.

The President shall have power to fill up all vacancies that may happen during the recess of the Senate, by granting commissions which shall expire at the end of their next session.

[Donkey®]

Aren't you one of the ones that call income tax illegal? Their permission is right there...






Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

Anyway, these two:


"To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;"

and

"To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof."

Those two seem to cover the legality question to me...unless I am reading wrong.

[6SpeedTA95]

You dont think they'd count as part of national defense?

[lew]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Aren't you one of the ones that call income tax illegal? Their permission is right there...






Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

Section 9. The migration or importation of such persons as any of the states now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each person.

The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.

No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

No capitation, or other direct, tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken.

[lew]

Originally Posted by Donkey®

Anyway, these two:


"To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;"

and

"To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof."

Those two seem to cover the legality question to me...unless I am reading wrong.

The clause only grants power to create laws which help facilitate the powers you didn't quote. It doesn't give Congress unlimited power.

[lew]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

You dont think they'd count as part of national defense?

"National defense" has no real meaning when speaking of constitutional legality. Otherwise, again, ANYTHING could be cited as "national defense."