The Effects of Hillarycare

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by R-Type

or because they were brushed off for having no coverage until it became critical and they end up in the ER.

If they refuse to go to the free clinics, that is their fault.

[PetriW]

The american healthcare system is the most expensive in the world, the usa spends roughly 14% of their GDP on healthcare compared to the closest others with switzerland at 11% and germany at 10%. Yet despite this the us healthcare system rates below all other OECD countries based a balanced evaluation of healthcare systems' overall output (life expectancy, infant mortality, etc...) and costs ($ spent per person, % of GDP dedicated to healthcare) according to the WHO. (Even IF you don't trust the WHO, you don't get a good bang for the buck.)
And this is despite the fact that the usa have significantly more young than europe.

If you lived in Europe and were worried about what the topic starter shows, then there are healthcare insurances here too, but which most certainly don't cost over $5000/year (twice the OECD average), even including the healthcare you pay for through your taxes. And if nothing else, if your local hospital can't provide treatment in a timely manner, then you can go to another one with a shorter line (well, at least in sweden).

So far the Swedish healthcare system has treated me and my relatives very well, on my mothers side several have had heart problems and the time between diagnosis and treatment was days, not 4 months or something like that. We do have lines but if it's urgent you get to skip it.

Btw, the 18000 figure is from the Institute of Medicine.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by PetriW

Btw, the 18000 figure is from the Institute of Medicine.

18,000?!! That's a TINY TINY number when compared to the number that live in our country. As Diesel said, that could be EASILY explained if they didn't seek medical attention. Look at the homeless for example; I'd be willing to bet a large number of those numbers are homeless who don't know their head from a hole in the ground.

You cannot compare a country our size to any small country anywhere else in the world, it's just not a fair comparison. Even moreso, you can't compare the quality of healthcare either, nor the technological achievements made in our healthcare system. You cannot exclude all of these factors as part of the US healthcare system, for they all contribute a large part. It is much more complex than '18k die without health insurance each year'. It's not fair to anyone to simplify it like that.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by PetriW

Btw, the 18000 figure is from the Institute of Medicine.

There are 300 million citizens in America, and 9million in Sweden.

18,000 amounts to .00006 of the population.

You have to put that into perspective. How many Americans as well as people from all over the world were saved because they had access to our health care system? I'm sure that number is multiples of 18,000. How many people in Sweden died because the quality of health care wasn't as good as in America?

[PetriW]

Yep, it's "only" about 1% higher death rate among the uninsured, no telling what it means in lost productivity due to sickness that doesn't cause the uninsured to die, only lowering their quality of life / productivity.

Oh and now that's nice, can't compare countries? Last time I checked americans compared their country to others in everything. Bestest greatest magnifantest etc. blah, this forum drips of america > all. Don't come telling us others that as soon as you're at a disadvantage we can't compare anymore. Heck, Dick Cheney compares and states you're the best in the world when it comes to healthcare too. I guess the 5% richest with their 55% of the healthcare spending evens out the 50% poorest only representing 3% of the healthcare budget. This is one of the most unequal figures in the developed world.

Also, you seem to think Sweden is this small country with only it's own healthcare... Well, that's not exactly how it works, here we send patients to specialist hospitals in other EU countries if needed for specialist care. And well, last time I checked the EU is actually larger than the United States (by some 50%). We still have our own healthcare systems in each country though, and according to WHO we get more out of them than you do for less money.

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by PetriW

blah, this forum drips of america > all.

I won't apologize for loving my country and everything about it.

[PetriW]

Originally Posted by JaJae

How many people in Sweden died because the quality of health care wasn't as good as in America?

You assume our healthcare system is inferiour to your, please provide your source because so far I've seen assumptions.

Here's a nice summary I've used:
NCHC | Facts About Healthcare - Health Insurance Coverage

It also includes numbers on how much is spent on the uninsured etc.

[PetriW]

Originally Posted by Institute of Medicine. Hidden Costs, Values Lost: Uninsurance in America

The uninsured are 30 to 50 percent more likely to be hospitalized for an avoidable condition, with the average cost of an avoidable hospital stayed estimated to be about $3,300.

Originally Posted by Institute of Medicine. Care Without Coverage - Too Little, Too Late.

The increasing reliance of the uninsured on the emergency department has serious economic implications, since the cost of treating patients is higher in the emergency department than in other outpatient clinics and medical practices.

Looks like you're wasting money to me.

[RMNIXON]

The only thing good about Canada Care is you can drive across the border. I know people in Canada that come here. They don't want us to establish a government run system because the first rule would probably be that you must be a US taxpayer or citizen to use it!

[PetriW]

Originally Posted by JaJae

How many people in Sweden died because the quality of health care wasn't as good as in America?

I'm still waiting, where's the information that your healthcare system is so much better than ours that it counters a 1% increase in deaths and the increased hospitalization among the uninsured?

I don't know if we have better technology here, but if it's worse, it's not by much. That I'm convinced of.
Being proud of your nation should not mean you assume it's better at everything, even when the numbers speak against you.

[Scrum]

Originally Posted by PetriW

Being proud of your nation should not mean you assume it's better at everything, even when the numbers speak against you.

I have been branded an America hater for making that same statement.

There is a sort of fanatic nationalism, especially with people who lean towards conservatism, in this country.

It's the whole "with us or against us" mentality.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by PetriW

I'm still waiting, where's the information that your healthcare system is so much better than ours that it counters a 1% increase in deaths and the increased hospitalization among the uninsured?

The fact that Europeans in crisis come to America to get their healthcare and not Sweden is enough for me.

You said it yourself, there are lines.. but if it's serious you can be bumped. We typically don't have lines in America. If you need treatment you can get it, before your problems complicate on you. And when you do get your treatment you have access to the most advanced hospitals in the world who are at the pinnacle of medical technologies and procedures.

If your only argument is that there are some uninsured Americans, therefore your system is better. My argument is that, I have insurance. Most people I know have insurance. And most of those who don't have access to government health care. I have gone without healthcare to save money. It was my choice. The majority of uninsured Americans have government assistance or made a personal choice. And I've seen statistics that it's mostly middle aged people fresh out of college/high school starting up a career and almost all of them acquire health insurance at a reasonable time frame.

The fact that only .00006 of our population has died because of inadequate health insurance (by your statistic) tells me that overall our nation is doing rather well considering our health care system in this country likely saved multiples of that number as compared to living in a European nation or even Canada for that matter.

There is a reason people come from all over the world to America for treatment and not Sweden. Also keep in mind Americans are far less healthy than your nation. So to say 1% more die or this or that doesn't really say much to me. Because how many of them would have died anyway? Compare the diets, the number of people overweight, etc. It's not conclusive of the care they received.

[PetriW]

Originally Posted by JaJae

The fact that Europeans in crisis come to America to get their healthcare and not Sweden is enough for me.

What do you know about people not coming to Sweden really? It's not like we don't have private hospitals over here either.

There was a news story just a few days ago on tv about how a Swedish specialist unit take care of extremly early born children from both the EU and the US. So they apparently do travel here from time to time.

Originally Posted by JaJae

The fact that only .00006 of our population has died because of inadequate health insurance (by your statistic) tells me that overall our nation is doing rather well considering our health care system in this country likely saved multiples of that number as compared to living in a European nation or even Canada for that matter.

How would the american healthcare system save multiples more people than the european healthcare system? It's doing some miracles unknown to the rest of the world? I mean, your average lifetime is shorter than ours yet your healthcare saves more of you? Too many die in wars pulling the statistics down? Or maybe the fat people dying early doesn't count? 30 to 50% more avoidable hospitalizations among uninsured is insignificant?

Originally Posted by JaJae

There is a reason people come from all over the world to America for treatment and not Sweden. Also keep in mind Americans are far less healthy than your nation. So to say 1% more die or this or that doesn't really say much to me. Because how many of them would have died anyway? Compare the diets, the number of people overweight, etc. It's not conclusive of the care they received.

Over here your diet / weight is part of your healthcare if you want to.


Question, I've read multiple times that your healthcare coverage is inferiour to ours (on american blogs/columns/articles, over here we're not all that interested...). However, I've not read examples of where it's inferiour.
For example, if a kid is born deaf? Will he get the implants needed to make him able to hear? On both ears? Will he get them eventhough none in his family has an insurance? Is it easy or hard for him to get it?
If you're hiv infected, will you get medication even if you're uninsured? Who pays for the medicine? (hiv as an example since it's expensive medicine)

If the state pays for the above, don't you already have "our" system? Only most people pay very high rates to ensure they have access eventhough they have it already?

And what's the point of Hillarycare if you already have Hillarycare? According to this thread all americans have access to the best hospitals in the world free of charge, not even small $15 fees per visit or similar which we have. It's just to go to the closest doctor, have him check you up and then let him solve the bill.

And if hospitals can't refuse to treat you, why do they check if you have an insurance or are able to pay in advance?

Originally Posted by JaJae

Most people I know have insurance.

So do most people I know too... Only thing is they work at companies that have a healthcare insurance to ensure their employees get instant care plus yearly checkups... How many mimimum wage people do you know? Do they all have an insurance?

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by PetriW

What do you know about people not coming to Sweden really? It's not like we don't have private hospitals over here either.

There was a news story just a few days ago on tv about how a Swedish specialist unit take care of extremly early born children from both the EU and the US. So they apparently do travel here from time to time.

It happens here all the time and I'd argue moreso than any nation in the world.

How would the american healthcare system save multiples more people than the european healthcare system? It's doing some miracles unknown to the rest of the world? I mean, your average lifetime is shorter than ours yet your healthcare saves more of you? Too many die in wars pulling the statistics down? Or maybe the fat people dying early doesn't count? 30 to 50% more avoidable hospitalizations among uninsured is insignificant?

Our average lifetime is shorter not because of our hospitals, but because of our lifestyles and diets. Americans don't eat like guinea pigs, we eat like real pigs. That's why our life spans are shorter, it has nothing to do with the quality of our health care. The fact that you brought up wars shows you're fishing for politicized straw man arguments.

Over here your diet / weight is part of your healthcare if you want to.

ok.

Question, I've read multiple times that your healthcare coverage is inferiour to ours (on american blogs/columns/articles, over here we're not all that interested...). However, I've not read examples of where it's inferiour.
For example, if a kid is born deaf? Will he get the implants needed to make him able to hear? On both ears? Will he get them eventhough none in his family has an insurance? Is it easy or hard for him to get it?
If you're hiv infected, will you get medication even if you're uninsured? Who pays for the medicine? (hiv as an example since it's expensive medicine)

Coverage does not equal quality of health care. Yes our "coverage" is inferior to socialist health care systems. That's why we have people promoting Hillarycare. The problem with socialized healthcare is that the quality of that care decreases for the vast majority of us who do have insurance... this would be compounded in America where our economy is extremely capitalist and we completely suck at running anything through our government.

If the state pays for the above, don't you already have "our" system? Only most people pay very high rates to ensure they have access eventhough they have it already?

The state only pays for the poor, free clinics and children. The hospitals pay for people like illegals and dirtbags who give false names and don't pay their bills.

And what's the point of Hillarycare if you already have Hillarycare? According to this thread all americans have access to the best hospitals in the world free of charge, not even small $15 fees per visit or similar which we have. It's just to go to the closest doctor, have him check you up and then let him solve the bill.

We don't already have Hillarycare. We have privatized medicine with some government intervention for the needy (which I agree with). Not socialist healthcare for everyone, which we all pay for, whether we want it or not. I like being able to choose my health care plan and pay what I want to pay. And I like knowing the hospital I go to has to compete with the hospital up the street to keep the quality up.

And if hospitals can't refuse to treat you, why do they check if you have an insurance or are able to pay in advance?

The laws basically say if you can't pay, you can go to a hospital and they have to treat you well enough to where you're ok to leave... free of charge. They ask questions regarding employment and insurance because it's in their best interest to get payment from as many people as possible... otherwise they go out of business like the hospitals flooded by illegal immigrants. The quality of care they receive may also be determined by their level of insurance. For example, a homeless man is brought in by ambulance after having a heart attack. They would treat him just the same as if I came in in an emergancy situation.

In my state in order to cut back on the uninsured you can be covered under your parent's policy until you're 28 now. I've been paying for my own health insurance since my early-mid twenties. I grew up in a rather urban area of central NJ. The problem is not as widespread as the media portrays it. The system is better off the way it is. If anything raise our taxes to help people who make less money.. set the bar higher for medicare and such. But changing over everybody's health care because a minority of people can't or don't want to pay for their own is not the way to go about it.

Also keep in mind Sweden is a small country, with a low population. It's a lot easier to impliment socialized healthcare in a nation of those demographics. In America it would be much harder.

[PetriW]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Coverage does not equal quality of health care. Yes our "coverage" is inferior to socialist health care systems.

Kind of what I wanted to get at.

We have the same thing here but at a different level I guess, there are cheap insurances (compared to USA ones) to ensure you get care instantly at a private hospital. So, by paying a bit extra you can ensure you get instant care if the public system can't provide it, otherwise you get the general coverage (which is very good already).


It should be said that the major complaint people have about Swedish healthcare is that they treat you then send you home to heal up as soon as possible. There's no real meaning to people staying at the hostpital more than that they feel safer. Dunno how it's over on the other side of the pond but I guess they like you staying around as it's you who are paying the bill.

[PetriW]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Also keep in mind Sweden is a small country, with a low population. It's a lot easier to impliment socialized healthcare in a nation of those demographics. In America it would be much harder.

Hmm, I don't really think it can't scale, I mean as you point out with a very large healthcare system you can provide some super specialist care while here we have a few units and cooperate between countries when needed. You'd split the healthcare so each state provides it's own healthcare (that's how it works here kinda) and each state would split healthcare down to smaller areas. Healthcare would of course not be 100% the same across the country, that's expecting a bit too much.

What I find hard to imagine is switching though, I'm certain there'd be a lot of pains in that. I guess if Hillarycare passed it'd be introduced slowly, building from the bottom up rather than replacing the whole system overnight.

[JaJae]

[quote=PetriW;67742]

Originally Posted by JaJae

Coverage does not equal quality of health care. Yes our "coverage" is inferior to socialist health care systems.QUOTE]Kind of what I wanted to get at.

We have the same thing here but at a different level I guess, there are cheap insurances (compared to USA ones) to ensure you get care instantly at a private hospital. So, by paying a bit extra you can ensure you get instant care if the public system can't provide it, otherwise you get the general coverage (which is very good already).


It should be said that the major complaint people have about Swedish healthcare is that they treat you then send you home to heal up as soon as possible. There's no real meaning to people staying at the hostpital more than that they feel safer. Dunno how it's over on the other side of the pond but I guess they like you staying around as it's you who are paying the bill.

Depends on the hospital. They're moving away from it. Hospital visits used to be a lot longer than they are now. But as populations increase bed space is limited. We still stay longer than is necessary. And it's not us paying the bill, it's our private insurance companies. We typically have a co-pay, but that's it. My co-pay is something like $250. If I have to stay in a bed for a month, I will only pay $250 out of pocket and my insurance will pay most of the rest. But this is also why our health care is so expensive. We stay in hospitals longer, our medicine is typically more expensive, we have a system where doctors get sued left and right and hospitals/doctors have to pay outrageous malpractice premiums. We have a lot of problems with our healthcare that need to be addressed. But universal healthcare will hurt more people than it will help in this nation.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by PetriW

Hmm, I don't really think it can't scale, I mean as you point out with a very large healthcare system you can provide some super specialist care while here we have a few units and cooperate between countries when needed. You'd split the healthcare so each state provides it's own healthcare (that's how it works here kinda) and each state would split healthcare down to smaller areas. Healthcare would of course not be 100% the same across the country, that's expecting a bit too much.

What I find hard to imagine is switching though, I'm certain there'd be a lot of pains in that. I guess if Hillarycare passed it'd be introduced slowly, building from the bottom up rather than replacing the whole system overnight.

See we can't cooperate between countries. Canada sucks. Mexico ain't any better. It's just us. We have to do it all. Some states can't even properly educate children let alone provide healthcare. And the notion of Hillarycare is a federal arrangement.

The idea of states paying for healthcare scares me considering the fine job they've done with spending on money towards education.

[motivez]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

You cannot compare a country our size to any small country anywhere else in the world, it's just not a fair comparison.

Why not? Per Capita? Per GDP? Etc, etc?

We compare ourselves to other nations all the time by adjusting the scale

[Pro Street]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

just they will get that massive bill that they can ignore

you can't ignore healthcare bills forever.