The Effects of Hillarycare

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by motivez

Why not? Per Capita? Per GDP? Etc, etc?

We compare ourselves to other nations all the time by adjusting the scale

Fair enough. But I also want to know what the immigration policy is in Sweden? A major cost in California is the very high and growing number of uninsured illegals and legall immigrants who swamp the public hospital system and free clinics and have little or no ability to pay for health services. Also what is the legal situation in sweden? Medical lawsuits are like the Sun coming up in America. A major cost, just ask John Edwards (Rich liberal lawyer "class warfare" candidate for President 2008). Is the government system protected against legall liability?

[hsmith]

deregulate health care then everyone can afford it.

[PetriW]

Illegal immigrants have no access to basic healthcare, they'd get taken care of at the ER if it's urgent but for anything else they are sent home, if the ER takes care of them they're sent home once they recover.
Aka, illegal immigrants rely on volunteer healthcare here, there's very little debate about it too, illegal immigrants carry very little favor unless they're hiding because they don't want to be sent back to be jailed and tortured (plenty of examples).

Healthcare for asylum seekers is actually an unregulated area but there's an agreement between the state and the healthcare regions that the state pays the bill. This has the effect that sometimes people who are granted asylum are sent a bill for their healthcare during the asylum period, if you're denied asylum generally you get no bill and if you do get one you can ignore it since they don't hunt you. Once you're a swedish citizen you have 100% coverage.

Foreign workers pay for their healthcare I believe.


Medical lawsuits essentially don't exist in Sweden, doctors etc who make grave mistakes lose their license and are thus not allowed to continue the profession in the country.
There are insurances that covers loss of salary and the rebuilding needs in your house if you get disabled, if you don't have an insurance you're pretty much fucked on that part. If you can't work anymore you become an "early retired" which means you get 65% of your previous salary (with a floor so you don't get too little to survive). If the state considers you a disabled person (which is different from unable to work) then you may get help with an assistant, transportation and similar.

From what I know most people get such an insurance around the time they start thinking about getting kids since it's usually a package deal for the whole family. While at school (and traveling to and from it) the school has you insured and all employers must insure their workers in case something happens at work. You have to have your own insurance for your own free time however.
Aka, if you get hurt enough to lose income while at school or work insurance covers you beyond what the system covers.

Such an insurance costs about $150 to $300 per year depending on age and coverage.

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by PetriW

Illegal immigrants have no access to basic healthcare, they'd get taken care of at the ER if it's urgent but for anything else they are sent home, if the ER takes care of them they're sent home once they recover.
Aka, illegal immigrants rely on volunteer healthcare here, there's very little debate about it too, illegal immigrants carry very little favor unless they're hiding because they don't want to be sent back to be jailed and tortured (plenty of examples).

In America some illegals have no shame.. they march right up to town hall and start demanding "rights". I wish America was like much of Europe in that respect.

[PetriW]

I think part of the difference is that if a company employed illegal immigrants here it'd be a huge scandal and immense negative PR whereas it kinda sounds like illegal immigrants working in the us is commonplace. The unions would also blockade the company until they got legal workers or went out of business (we're talking a total blockade where multiple unions cooperate to shut down everything).
The illegal immigrants I've heard about all work with cleaning and similar, aka in the service sector targeting private persons where person to person recommendations is the thing.

[tbone]

Someone without health insurance would never get brain surgery in the US, unless a doctor and hospital donate the services. ER's that are funded by tax dollars in some way are REQUIRED to treat everyone, regardless of coverage. But this does NOT include anything beyond the ER unless the whole hospital is tax funded (very rare). So a person without health care or means to pay would die in the US with a brain tumor. The only exception is if they go to the hospital and the tumor hemmorages, but if there is no immedate threat to life (immediate means within hours) they will not get surgery.

The US's healthcare is the most advanced in the world in terms of technology and advancements because it's a multibillion dollar business. The problem is currently nearly 20% of the population can't afford healthcare and the number is rising. So while you may be for the current state of healthcare, as costs continue to rise and you have to absorb more of of pocket expenses, your tune may change. Once that percentage who can't afford or don't have access to affordable healthcare reaches a certain percentile, things will change. Most of the people in this forum are only 1-2 classes away from being in that category. I expect we will see major changes within a decade, either heavily gov't regulations, or outright gov't provided healthcare as it's predicted at the current price increases the percentage of people who can't afford healthcare will reach into the mid 30s in the US.

[Thorgrim]

America is different, I've been told this 1000x...if America really is the same as other nations, we should use Japan's gun control laws and imply all their methods and see our murder rate drop like a rock

Or maybe we are different...we're a the lone super-power, if anyone can handle universal healthcare, its us

I am sure the GOP will be there to point out the possible mistakes, and we'll make a hybrid system based on tried universal healthcare and the unique american system for something that will advance all of us

[Stoner]

Originally Posted by Diesel66

hospital usually eats it

One of my good friends works in billing at a major hospital and he's told me a lot of those who don't pay they write it off under charity for tax purposes.

[7th Ninjai]

Malkin should quit politics and get into porn.

[RMNIXON]

Originally Posted by PetriW

Illegal immigrants have no access to basic healthcare, they'd get taken care of at the ER if it's urgent but for anything else they are sent home, if the ER takes care of them they're sent home once they recover.
Aka, illegal immigrants rely on volunteer healthcare here, there's very little debate about it too, illegal immigrants carry very little favor unless they're hiding because they don't want to be sent back to be jailed and tortured (plenty of examples).

As I suspected. The California legislature is working on Universal Heathcare with new proposals to give heathcare to all California Children first. And yes, illegals are included. A great way to open the door when they work on the same program for all people in this State. If we were a Foreign Country you would see more and more afluent people, not rich mind you, but the people who create jobs and payrolls leaving your country and more and more uneducated legal and illegal immigrants who need government assistance coming in. This will not sustain itself for too long!

[motivez]

Something interesting comes up with the California situation from a libertarian perspective.

I've seen libertarian's on here who are enamored with the concept of states rights say that states have the right to establish an official religion if they so desired.

So, if a state wants to provide universal health care to residents of that state, citizens or not, can they? Is it acceptable for them to do so?

[ballz2wallz]

We should look to England as an example of what NOT to become regarding healthcare. In case you're wondering, it's also a good example of Hillarycare.

[PetriW]

Originally Posted by ballz2wallz

We should look to England as an example of what NOT to become regarding healthcare. In case you're wondering, it's also a good example of Hillarycare.

Details please!

[Emfuser]

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

As I suspected. The California legislature is working on Universal Heathcare with new proposals to give heathcare to all California Children first. And yes, illegals are included. A great way to open the door when they work on the same program for all people in this State. If we were a Foreign Country you would see more and more afluent people, not rich mind you, but the people who create jobs and payrolls leaving your country and more and more uneducated legal and illegal immigrants who need government assistance coming in. This will not sustain itself for too long!

It's a simple, but well-known fact that having open borders in a welfare state is a horrid idea. Your country then becomes a magnet for everyone out there who lives on "assistance", handouts, free rides, and generally doing as little as possible to sustain their lifestyle. Some of our "progressive" European friends are starting to learn this the hard way.

I'm surprised that, in this thread, nobody opposing socialized healthcare for the most obvious reason: socialized health care, being part of a socialistic system, is just another form of resource distribution. Many of us don't agree with that prime tenet of socialism, and that's why we don't agree with socialized healthcare.

[Thorgrim]

so are all social programs, how much progress have you made on getting medicare or medicaid abolished?

Anyway, Universal healthcare may be our key to economic success, with every company in america getting billions to invest when they no longer have to pay for their employees healthcare

It'll be a lot bigger than any tax cut, possibly saving us from the upcoming recession

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

so are all social programs, how much progress have you made on getting medicare or medicaid abolished?

Anyway, Universal healthcare may be our key to economic success, with every company in america getting billions to invest when they no longer have to pay for their employees healthcare

It'll be a lot bigger than any tax cut, possibly saving us from the upcoming recession

If the Democrats instill socialized medicine who do you think is gonna pay the bulk of it? The wealthy and the businesses. They won't have "billions to invest." Our government is horrible at doing anything funded by the government. It's likely to assume the costs will go up... especially for the wealthy people who would invest and businesses.

This is just another attempt at redistribution of wealth and bigger government interfering in our lives. As emfuser said, you allow free healthcare here and you have the illegal immigration increase. In Europe they'll willing to kick the illegals out. In America, especially the Democrats (who protest the civilian patrols of our borders), we do all we can to prevent that. It's a liberal recipe for disaster.... NOT economic achievement.

[Thorgrim]

As I recall, the Republican Congress and WH couldn't get anything through, and no filibuster was used by democrats on the issue

Maybe the extremely wealthy will have to pay, but who said anything about a significant increase in corporate taxes...and that is who is going to see the benefits...corporations/reg businesses...

anyway, illegal immigrants who really want to "abuse" our system already can...every number I see they contribute far more than they take away

[JaJae]

Originally Posted by Thorgrim

As I recall, the Republican Congress and WH couldn't get anything through, and no filibuster was used by democrats on the issue

Maybe the extremely wealthy will have to pay, but who said anything about a significant increase in corporate taxes...and that is who is going to see the benefits...corporations/reg businesses...

anyway, illegal immigrants who really want to "abuse" our system already can...every number I see they contribute far more than they take away

You're mistakenly under the impression that in a capitalist system, if you increase everyone's taxes, that wages won't be forced to increase to compensate. Thus having a negative impact.

Or, people will be poorer and won't have any money to spend on these "increased investments." People will spend less and thus harm the economy.

No matter how you look at this, taking an optional expense and increasing that expense for everyone in the form of a tax is bad for the economy. There is no advantage.

[Thorgrim]

Originally Posted by JaJae

You're mistakenly under the impression that in a capitalist system, if you increase everyone's taxes, that wages won't be forced to increase to compensate. Thus having a negative impact.

Or, people will be poorer and won't have any money to spend on these "increased investments." People will spend less and thus harm the economy.

No matter how you look at this, taking an optional expense and increasing that expense for everyone in the form of a tax is bad for the economy. There is no advantage.

You don't increase everyone's taxes, only those making over 200,000 a year

Hard working families making say 60,000 a year, will find their taxes the same, possibly lowered, and huge saving in health care costs, which gives them lots of money to spend spend spend

Corporations who were suffering from the economic powerhouses of China and India will find new life with a surge that is basically an internationally acceptable subsidy

Good news all around, except for hollywood celebrities and conservative propagandists like Rush/Oreally, who won't see as much cash

[ballz2wallz]

Originally Posted by PetriW

Details please!

At a recent wedding I met a young guy who works for the NHS in the UK. I was initially shocked that they were hiring Americans to work for the British healtcare system. He told me that nobody over there wants to be involved in the healthcare system, or even really get into medicine. Many of the doctors over there are brought in from out of the country. He basically said that they are slowly working towards privatizing their healthcare, because currently they are all state-run. He also said that despite the fact that he is a Democrat here in the states, he cannot for one second understand why anybody here would want public healthcare. It's a disaster.