Since our schools aren't working, and some kids are poor...

[bheld]

Originally Posted by TekDragon

"Education is different because there is an expectation of quality"

Really, sir? And I suppose any smuck off the street can create a company like ATI, Nvidia, Sony, Toshiba, Microsoft, Apple, etc, etc, etc? There are hundreds if not thousands of extremely specialised companies with extremely educated employees putting out a specialized product. Your assertation that capitalistic competition does not result in a quality product is what is laughable.

Listing off industry leaders doesn't do anything to refute my argument. Why don't you give me the dregs of each industry and tell me how great they are? The thing you're not realizing is that there can't be a "bargain" school because we live in a society where a solid education for everybody is extremely important. How are you going to ensure school quality without a bloated bureaucracy anyway?

"Where is the profit going to come from if our schools are starved for resources as it is?"

Well, you might want to research Turkey or any number of other nations switching from government run industries to the private sector. The money not only came, it came by the bank loads. We already know that schools are run EXTREMELY innefeciently, often with multiple layers of administration when only a fraction of that is needed. That's one blatantly obvious way, i'm sure the private sector, which has made hundreds of industries profitable where they were failing under government control could find many other ways.

Like I said, education isn't your average "government-run industry." You say that schools are run extremely inefficiently, do you have anything to back that up? They're probably the most financially squeezed out of any of them.

[TekDragon]

Originally Posted by bheld

Listing off industry leaders doesn't do anything to refute my argument. Why don't you give me the dregs of each industry and tell me how great they are? The thing you're not realizing is that there can't be a "bargain" school because we live in a society where a solid education for everybody is extremely important. How are you going to ensure school quality without a bloated bureaucracy anyway?

I find it ironic that you're argument against privatized schools is to look at the "dregs" of capitalist industry, when what you're failing to realize is that our ENTIRE FREAKING SCHOOL SYSTEM IN ITS CURRENT FORM IS THE DREGS OF THE WORLD.

You are correct in saying that education is a specialized industry that REQUIRES a quality product. So why not look at the industries that fit that description?

Video cards. Processors. Oil refineries. High tech construction equipment manufacturers. Etc, etc.

There are NO dregs in those industries because if a low-quality company did appear they would go bankrupt due to having NO consumers.

Like I said, education isn't your average "government-run industry." You say that schools are run extremely inefficiently, do you have anything to back that up? They're probably the most financially squeezed out of any of them.

A privatized industry is built for profits. That is, they make the most with their money. What motivation does our current school system have for getting the most out of their money? None.

In fact, the way our current school system works is that they are paid MORE for pumping out uneducated children.

[bheld]

Originally Posted by TekDragon

Who makes sure that when you plug in a Sony TV the screen doesn't fall out? Sony's competitors. Who makes sure that when you print from a Epson printer, the ink doesn't spray everywhere? Epson's competitors. Who makes sure when you listen to an iPod it doesn't explode in your pocket? Apple's competitors.

Where is the competition in the school system?

*chirp chirp*

The fact is simple. Education is a product. If a school (company) gives out a poor education (product) then that company WILL go out of business as parents (consumers) put their children into different schools (companies).

As it is we have ZERO competition in the school system. They are putting out a piss poor product and have absolutely no reason to provide a better one as they aren't going to lose their jobs no matter what.

How long is that going to take though? If everything goes fully private you're going to have a brand new cottage industry of educational robber barons.

I'm still waiting for an explanation on how for-profit education is going to work without jacking up education costs to taxpayers. "Let the magic of the free markets work" and other catchphrases aren't very convincing.

[bheld]

Originally Posted by TekDragon

I find it ironic that you're argument against privatized schools is to look at the "dregs" of capitalist industry, when what you're failing to realize is that our ENTIRE FREAKING SCHOOL SYSTEM IN ITS CURRENT FORM IS THE DREGS OF THE WORLD.

You are correct in saying that education is a specialized industry that REQUIRES a quality product. So why not look at the industries that fit that description?

Video cards. Processors. Oil refineries. High tech construction equipment manufacturers. Etc, etc.

There are NO dregs in those industries because if a low-quality company did appear they would go bankrupt due to having NO consumers.



A privatized industry is built for profits. That is, they make the most with their money. What motivation does our current school system have for getting the most out of their money? None.

In fact, the way our current school system works is that they are paid MORE for pumping out uneducated children.

Wow, are you serious? Dregs of the world? I guess we're moving that way thanks to NCLB.

[TekDragon]

Originally Posted by bheld

Wow, are you serious? Dregs of the world? I guess we're moving that way thanks to NCLB.

1. Identify what our education plan was before NCLB.
2. Find out at what date it was implemented.
3. Count the decades.
4. Ask any proffesional in the education field if something needed to be done.

My wife is getting her masters in education in one of the most liberal areas of the US, and even the proffesors there admit that something needed to be done and that NCLB was a good plan that just needs some work.

[bheld]

A privatized industry is built for profits. That is, they make the most with their money. What motivation does our current school system have for getting the most out of their money? None.

In fact, the way our current school system works is that they are paid MORE for pumping out uneducated children.

I'm pretty sure that education workers are motivated by teaching students. It's sure as hell not money. Can we get a few examples of what you consider waste? And how are they paid more for pumping out uneducated children?

[bheld]

Originally Posted by TekDragon

1. Identify what our education plan was before NCLB.
2. Find out at what date it was implemented.
3. Count the decades.
4. Ask any proffesional in the education field if something needed to be done.

My wife is getting her masters in education in one of the most liberal areas of the US, and even the proffesors there admit that something needed to be done and that NCLB was a good plan that just needs some work.

What are you talking about? Education plan? NCLB is undiscovered territory, there wasn't anything like it before. I'm not sure who you're talking to in the education field but NCLB is an unmitigated disaster.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by TekDragon

Who makes sure that when you plug in a Sony TV the screen doesn't fall out? Sony's competitors. Who makes sure that when you print from a Epson printer, the ink doesn't spray everywhere? Epson's competitors. Who makes sure when you listen to an iPod it doesn't explode in your pocket? Apple's competitors.

Where is the competition in the school system?

*chirp chirp*

The fact is simple. Education is a product. If a school (company) gives out a poor education (product) then that company WILL go out of business as parents (consumers) put their children into different schools (companies).

As it is we have ZERO competition in the school system. They are putting out a piss poor product and have absolutely no reason to provide a better one as they aren't going to lose their jobs no matter what.

That's not comparable at all.

you are comparing physical products with a service provider. Who makes sure that hospitals give out the correct drugs? who makes sure that atlantic city is on the up and up?
Also, who makes sure that auto makers are making safe cars? that the cars get atleast X mpg. etc.

[bheld]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

That's not comparable at all.

you are comparing physical products with a service provider. Who makes sure that hospitals give out the correct drugs? who makes sure that atlantic city is on the up and up?
Also, who makes sure that auto makers are making safe cars? that the cars get atleast X mpg. etc.

[WickedLou9]

Originally Posted by bheld

What are you talking about? Education plan? NCLB is undiscovered territory, there wasn't anything like it before. I'm not sure who you're talking to in the education field but NCLB is an unmitigated disaster.

Every educator that I have ever talked to hates NCLB and talks about what a joke it is and how it's totally counter productive.

[TekDragon]

Originally Posted by bheld

I'm pretty sure that education workers are motivated by teaching students.

Riiiight... You obviously have no idea how the education system works. Those teachers are given a program and they carry it out only minor alterations allowed.

The question you should ask is: Who makes the programs?

It's sure as hell not money.

Don't be so sure. My wife is coming out of school with a masters in education from a NE school, certified to teach children with mental disabilities, speaking spanish as well as american, and knowing sign language.

Believe me, she'll be making enough mone for a small family to live on alone, meaning my entire income can be invested.

Can we get a few examples of what you consider waste? And how are they paid more for pumping out uneducated children?

As I told you, I consider the layerment of uneccesary administration present throughout the nation as being an example of waste that would not exist if the schools were competing.

Since I am not integrated in the education field I can't tell you how it would be made better by privatizing. Just like I don't know the inner workings of the energy sector, so I couldn't tell you why privatizing Turkey's energy sector completely turned the country around.

As for paid more for pumping out uneducated children, school systems get additional fundings if they can convince the government that with more funding they could do better.

[bheld]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Every educator that I have ever talked to hates NCLB and talks about what a joke it is and how it's totally counter productive.

I think this guy is making stuff up because no self-respecting education professor would praise a program that reduces the school day to memorization and test-taking skills.

[TekDragon]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

That's not comparable at all.

you are comparing physical products with a service provider. Who makes sure that hospitals give out the correct drugs? who makes sure that atlantic city is on the up and up?
Also, who makes sure that auto makers are making safe cars? that the cars get atleast X mpg. etc.

You gave 2 examples of industires that can hardly be considered private sector with how much government involvement is in them. Ironically, both those examples are of industries laden with problems.

Your 3rd example, the automitive industry, IS a capitalistic industry.

Tell me, why is it Honda, the manufacturers of some of the safest and most fuel effecient vehicles are making so many problems with american companies? Hmmm..

[TekDragon]

Originally Posted by WickedLou9

Every educator that I have ever talked to hates NCLB and talks about what a joke it is and how it's totally counter productive.

Every educater i've talked to also hates the current iteration of NCLB. Apparently you're having a problem with reading comprehension.

[bheld]

Originally Posted by TekDragon

Riiiight... You obviously have no idea how the education system works. Those teachers are given a program and they carry it out only minor alterations allowed.

The question you should ask is: Who makes the programs?

What? You're going to have to go into some detail because you're sounding like a boob right now that's repeating things he heard once but keeps mixing them all up. What program? Where? What constitutes a "minor alteration?"

Don't be so sure. My wife is coming out of school with a masters in education from a NE school, certified to teach children with mental disabilities, speaking spanish as well as american, and knowing sign language.

Believe me, she'll be making enough mone for a small family to live on alone, meaning my entire income can be invested.

So how much is that? Masters degrees in other areas push you into six figure salary range. I'll be surprised if she makes half that starting out.

As I told you, I consider the layerment of uneccesary administration present throughout the nation as being an example of waste that would not exist if the schools were competing.

Since I am not integrated in the education field I can't tell you how it would be made better by privatizing. Just like I don't know the inner workings of the energy sector, so I couldn't tell you why privatizing Turkey's energy sector completely turned the country around.

As for paid more for pumping out uneducated children, school systems get additional fundings if they can convince the government that with more funding they could do better.

Okay, so you're saying that there's unnecessary administration and then in the next sentence say you don't know the inner workings of the education system? Thanks for clarifying.

It's not that easy to get additional funding either. Keep in mind schools aren't funded by the federal government.

[bheld]

Originally Posted by TekDragon

Every educater i've talked to also hates the current iteration of NCLB. Apparently you're having a problem with reading comprehension.

So how is it a "good plan that just needs some work?" Something tells me your fingers are working faster than your brain.

[TekDragon]

Originally Posted by bheld

So how much is that? Masters degrees in other areas push you into six figure salary range. I'll be surprised if she makes half that starting out.

It's a masters in education. If she freaking made as much as an MBA grad i'd be dropping out of the School of Management and switching to her school in a heartbeat.

Okay, so you're saying that there's unnecessary administration and then in the next sentence say you don't know the inner workings of the education system? Thanks for clarifying.

1. That information comes from an article I read comparing the administrative staff per student ratio of various schools across the US and tying them into school performance.

2. I wasn't aware that there was ANY room for debate that there is an over-abundance of administration and beurocracy in a government run industry.

[TekDragon]

Originally Posted by bheld

So how is it a "good plan that just needs some work?" Something tells me your fingers are working faster than your brain.

It's a good plan because the system was going to implode if it continued operating under the half-century old plan that the school systems were previously operating under.

Previous presidencies simply passed the buck on the issue, knowing that it is impossible to make everyone happy when it comes to trying to make a buerocratic monster like our education system into a succesful business model.

It does need substantial work, however.

[TekDragon]

Regardless, I can't belive you two managed to bait me into getting so completely off topic. I came into this thread arguing on the side of privatized education running more effectively than government run education.

Whether or not NCLB, a hot patch on a completely broken system, is good or not is completely immaterial and inconsequential to this discussion.