Bush says feds can open mail without warrant

[Kytro]

WASHINGTON — President Bush quietly has claimed sweeping new powers to open Americans' mail without a judge's warrant.

Bush asserted the new authority Dec. 20 after signing legislation that overhauls some postal regulations. He then issued a "signing statement" that declared his right to open mail under emergency conditions, contrary to existing law and contradicting the bill he had just signed, according to experts who have reviewed it.

A White House spokeswoman disputed claims that the move gives Bush any new powers, saying the Constitution allows such searches.

This is hardly surprising, and shows once again that Bush does not care at all about privacy.

[Scrum]

If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear.

[kinggovernor]

you are turning property over to the government

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by kinggovernor

you are turning property over to the government

possible argument.

The postmaster already has the authority to open mail in a few cases so they are just going to expand those times.

btw from the USPS

First-Class letters and parcels are protected against search and seizure under the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution, and, as such, cannot be opened without a search warrant. If there is probable cause to believe the contents of a First-Class letter or parcel violate federal law, Postal Inspectors can obtain a search warrant to open the mailpiece. Other classes of mail do not contain private correspondence, and therefore may be opened without a warrant.

So if he is talking about 1st class mail, then it is a complete rewrite. If he is talking about the lesser classes, then




Very wrong without a warrant though.

[motivez]

Who ships anything less than 1st class mail? Dropping a letter in the post office box is still first class mail afaik

But yeah, again, not surprising. Just another example of the "Hate the Constitution First" continuing their policy.

The lack of outrage over these types of things are very sad.

[Diamond Cross]

I'm outraged.

But there's nothing I can do about it. He has all the power in the world and my vote counts for shit.

Eventually things are going to come to a head by crap like this.

Hey, let's get rid of warrants altogether. Might as well change the law to say you're guilty until proven innocent. And all kinds of good things like that.

After all, people have a right to be safe and secure and the Constitution just gets in the way of that.

End sarcasism.

[thatguyoverthere]

Remember, we're fighting this war on terror to defend our freedoms. Getting rid of habeus corpus, tapping our phones, opening our mail... who honestly thinks it ends there? What are they doing that we don't yet know about?

Is this the kind of freedom that people are dying for? Is this the liberty that our founding fathers envisioned for us? I really want to know.

[RMNIXON]

Can we get a link with more information? Suddenly an "Emergency" has become 1984 all over again.

And folks this ain't news:

"Between 1940 and 1973, two agencies of the federal government -- the CIA and the FBI -- covertly and illegally opened and photographed first class letter mail within the United States. These agencies conducted a total of twelve mail opening programs for lengths of time varying from three weeks to twenty-six years. In a single program alone, more than 215,000 communications were intercepted, opened, and photographed; the photographic copies of these letters, some dated as early as 1955, were indexed, filed, and are retained even today. Information from this and other mail opening programs -- "sanitized" to disguise its true source -- was disseminated within the federal establishment to other members of the intelligence community, the Attorney General, and to the President of the United States."

DOMESTIC CIA AND FBI MAIL OPENING PROGRAMS


So Bush carries on my criminal legacy....and Kennedy's, and Truman's, and Roosevelt's....

[Diesel66]

Originally Posted by motivez

Who ships anything less than 1st class mail? Dropping a letter in the post office box is still first class mail afaik

packages, commercial mail (your bills often arent shipped 1st class)

I'd like to read more than 5 sentences on this deal, but as it sits now sounds pretty ridiculous IMO. They can get a warrant if they need to read someone's mail, thats a blatant invastion of privacy and would probably fall under the search and siezure clause.

[motivez]

Here's the full text of the signing statement:

“The executive branch shall construe subsection 404(c) of title 39, as enacted by subsection 1010(e) of the act, which provides for opening of an item of a class of mail otherwise sealed against inspection, in a manner consistent, to the maximum extent permissible, with the need to conduct searches in exigent circumstances, such as to protect human life and safety against hazardous materials, and the need for physical searches specifically authorized by law for foreign intelligence collection.

Basically, warrants are great and we'll attempt to use them whenever possible, you know, if we think they don't get in the way. If they do, well, we don't really need them.

It's the same reasoning used with wiretapping American's phone calls without a warrant, etc, etc.

[7th Ninjai]

Originally Posted by Diamond Cross

I'm outraged.


Might as well change the law to say you're guilty until proven innocent. And all kinds of good things like that.

End sarcasism.

Unfortunately, this is not sarcasm. Under the Military Commissions Act of 2006, the government CAN ***say*** you're guilty (enemy combatant), hold you idefinitely, and never give you any legal recourse. Also, you'll be subject to "harsh interrogations" - not torture

[Diamond Cross]

They could do that using the USA Patriot Act as well, I believe.

This is ridiculous but I'd be willing to bet the democrats dont roll back any of these powers

[nbiggershaft]

Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95

This is ridiculous but I'd be willing to bet the democrats dont roll back any of these powers

wasn't your party supposed to be about small government at some point?

Originally Posted by nbiggershaft

wasn't your party supposed to be about small government at some point?

Yeah before Bush took office

[Ardentfrost]

Shit like this make me feel sick to my stomach. I've said that before, but it still happens. I don't think I'll ever get used to them just taking shit from us (freedoms and whatnot) unceremoniously. It always seems like an aside... "oh, btw, if you get your mail and it looks like it's been opened, that was us. I just decided we can do that."

[ArrestMeRedZ28]

I used this article (from cnn.com) for my current event today. It's debatable, it's hard to know exactly what it means IMO.

It's an issue of security vs privacy, not that I'm for it or anything.

Originally Posted by ArrestMeRedZ28

I used this article (from cnn.com) for my current event today. It's debatable, it's hard to know exactly what it means IMO.

It's an issue of security vs privacy, not that I'm for it or anything.

Security is why we have a warrant system and even secret courts so the info doesn't have to be made public but the administration wont use those avenues for some unknown reason, so it seems more like reckless policy to me.

[Pro Street]

Originally Posted by RMNIXON

Can we get a link with more information? Suddenly an "Emergency" has become 1984 all over again.

And folks this ain't news:

"Between 1940 and 1973, two agencies of the federal government -- the CIA and the FBI -- covertly and illegally opened and photographed first class letter mail within the United States. These agencies conducted a total of twelve mail opening programs for lengths of time varying from three weeks to twenty-six years. In a single program alone, more than 215,000 communications were intercepted, opened, and photographed; the photographic copies of these letters, some dated as early as 1955, were indexed, filed, and are retained even today. Information from this and other mail opening programs -- "sanitized" to disguise its true source -- was disseminated within the federal establishment to other members of the intelligence community, the Attorney General, and to the President of the United States."

DOMESTIC CIA AND FBI MAIL OPENING PROGRAMS


So Bush carries on my criminal legacy....and Kennedy's, and Truman's, and Roosevelt's....

oh I love this argument.

take something today, and instead of making it justifiable or defending it, just bring up past examples.

how does this support whether it's right or wrong?

I can bring up past examples of prohibition, prison camps, and constitutional rapage, but I won't use it to defend something current